I need help...

[Marcuss]

I don’t know if this belongs in OT or N&P (mods feel free to move if appropriate) but I’ve got a situation I’m struggling with.

I’ve got a very close friend who has stood by me and been tremendously selfless at times where I’ve needed his support and I’m aware of the best bits of his character and what he’s capable of as a person.

I feel it is also important to say at this juncture that I have seen this extend across *** and race.

However, the very concept of privilege is one that his brain refuses to rationalise. He’s a South African man born in the late 80s, whose best friend was murdered by a black person, and who cannot see how his whiteness may have ever intrinsically benefited him.

His belief is that media reporting only serves to fuel the flames and that any mention of a person’s colour in a news story is to fan the flames of ongoing debate.

He makes statements such as he should not be made to feel guilty to be white because of what happened in the past and does not understand how in a general sense, across the globe, the white man has put themselves in a position of advantage - whether it be compared to any other demographic.

Apologies for the ham fisted outlining in the post above but I am drunk and want to know how people may have approached similar situations in the past.

Fundamentally he doesn’t feel as though he should have to ‘apologise’ for the actions of others (i.e. his ancestors) and the entire concept of privilege is one he refuses to recognise.

I’m trying to educate or find a way to get him to understand but... umm... it’s hard

 

[Shady Slim]

i'm probably of no help here and i'm sure you've probably tried this but i think the key here lies in finding the way to shift the focus away from him thinking acknowledging privilege is about being made to feel guilty about the wrongs of the past (which it isn't, because he did not perpetrate them), but understanding that because of the wrongs of the past, certain people are at inherent disadvantage as to their standing today and acknowledging privilege is about the first foundations of building the bridge to reconcile those disadvantages and move towards a more equal standing

tl;dr if i have to summarise i suppose the go could be to try and make him realise acknowledging privilege and moving forward doesn't serve a retrospective end, but rather is for building a more equal future

 

[harsh.ag]

Personally, think it depends on his actions. How does he treat people of different races? Is he dismissive of them when they air their struggles?

 

[Marcuss]

i'm probably of no help here and i'm sure you've probably tried this but i think the key here lies in finding the way to shift the focus away from him thinking acknowledging privilege is about being made to feel guilty about the wrongs of the past (which it isn't, because he did not perpetrate them), but understanding that because of the wrongs of the past, certain people are at inherent disadvantage as to their standing today and acknowledging privilege is about the first foundations of building the bridge to reconcile those disadvantages and move towards a more equal standing

tl;dr if i have to summarise i suppose the go could be to try and make him realise acknowledging privilege and moving forward doesn't serve a retrospective end, but rather is for building a more equal future

I tried this but the barriers are/were his first hand experiences in South Africa and his complete inability to recognise things in a ‘general sense’. I.e. Barack Obama became president and therefore no black person can complain to be disadvantaged because there is no barrier to their accomplishments.

He doesn't understand that white privilege doesn’t equate to saying that everyone white person is intrinsically more advantaged than every black person even accounting for other factors - class, education, etc etc

 

[Shri]

Watch american history x with him

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Does he have any black friends?

 

[Shady Slim]

i'm sure you've tried/considered going for some stats on things like how in the states the average black household earns half what the average white household earns, and if we use wealth terms is on averages poorer than ninety percent of white households (https://qz.com/1368251/black-income-is-half-that-of-white-households-just-like-it-was-in-the-1950s/)

and to that he hits you with something to the effect of "maybe that's because white people work harder/are smarter/etc"? if not then that's an avenue you could explore

 

[Adders]

This is hard, when I first met my wife she had a very good mate who was scalped by a Vietnamese group of 4, my wife was seriously racist af towards Asians after that...........it took me (us) a long time to work through it so she doesn't feel like that now. My best advice Marcuss is to keep telling your mate that there is **** in all races.........and even if he has been touched by the bad of one, then don't let that paint the picture of the rest.

 

[Teja.]

From what you’ve said your friend doesn’t seem to discriminate people based on race but doesn’t understand institutional racism etc.

I think using hard data and arguments to ‘red-pill’ someone, especially your best friend, into believing racism exists is not the best idea and too much of a shock to the ego to happen in a eureka moment to someone who has believed otherwise their entire life. It’s a more gradual process imo and we are very emotional creatures.

People are far more likely to change and grow more sensitive to things like the presence of racism gradually and significantly when the social group around them is more liberal/progressive/what-have-you than them but doesn’t shame them or discount their views. So in my opinion you should just keep being firm about your beliefs and continue being a great friend, maybe slowly introduce them to people in your life who share similar outlooks to yours.

It might not work but there really is no magic solution imo.

EDIT: Deleted my earlier post because it was a mess in conveying what I meant.

 

[honestbharani]

It can be hard for someone if they have met the exceptions from either side in a case of an under-privileged Vs privileged discussion, which is what most discrimation discussions boil down to. And the entire social media (or even media landscape, full stop) makes it seem as though if you do not personally share a certain viewpoint, you are totally and completely a racist/supremacist etc. It does look like the person has formed his views on personal experiences and anecdotal evidences. That stuff is hard to "rip out" as it were, maybe gradually showing them the plight of the majority who suffer and even the majority of his color who do end up being privileged might help. But I will echo what few others have said here, don't be snarky or rude to them about their views, just try to accept their point as it is based on their experiences, but at the same time point out that his experiences may have been more exception than norm based on available information from across the world.

 

[Marcuss]

From what you’ve said your friend doesn’t seem to discriminate people based on race but doesn’t understand institutional racism etc.

I think using hard data and arguments to ‘red-pill’ someone, especially your best friend, into believing racism exists is not the best idea and too much of a shock to the ego to happen in a eureka moment to someone who has believed otherwise their entire life. It’s a more gradual process imo and we are very emotional creatures.

People are far more likely to change and grow more sensitive to things like the presence of racism gradually and significantly when the social group around them is more liberal/progressive/what-have-you than them but doesn’t shame them or discount their views. So in my opinion you should just keep being firm about your beliefs and continue being a great friend, maybe slowly introduce them to people in your life who share similar outlooks to yours.

It might not work but there really is no magic solution imo.

EDIT: Deleted my earlier post because it was a mess in conveying what I meant.

This is it. He understands overt racism and says things to the effect of ‘I don’t go around punching black people’ which in his mind makes him ‘not a racist’.

But the concept of systemic/systemic/institutionalised racism don’t register.

I’ve tried using every metaphor under the sun in order to try and get him to be able to see it one way or another but there been no concession there just yet.

 

[StephenZA]

This is a very common attitude amongst white South Africans. You will find it very difficult to change somebody who has grown up or spent formative years in SA from this view point. He also probably has friends/family still living in SA that help verify this view point.

 

[Line and Length]

He’s a South African man born in the late 80s, whose best friend was murdered by a black person.

An incident such as this can have a profound affect on anyone. As your friend is now in his early 30s, this incident may have occurred when he was still in his formative years and, just as Adders has pointed out, can result in prejudices towards an entire group.

Try talking through similar, but unrelated, stories involving violence while pointing out it is unrealistic to blame an entire ethnic race because of the actions of a few. At the same time, discuss how decades of suppression and under-privilege can breed anger and distrust.

Other than that, stand by your friend and accept that his attitudes may be the result of a tragic incident in his past.