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The American Politics thread

RossTaylorsBox

Well-known member
What about all that stuff about the "cause". I guess it's not unprecedented, but TBH if we are correcting politicians on literal truth, Glenn will have a long time doing that on Trump's tweets. a bit of whataboutery there, but ya know it's in fashion.
Glenn's belief is that the American establishment is as terrible or worse than Trump, just that they hide their crimes better. They want to get rid of Trump so they can preserve the old order, not out of any genuine concern about corruption.
 

Anil

Well-known member
I think whataboutery is basically required when you're replying to somthing saying it's unprecedented.

If Romney just said Trump was corrupt and he gave past examples then it'd be a bit dire, but when he says it's "unprecedented" and "historic", examples of what past presidents did are extremely relevant as a counter.
it is not unprecedented but it is still pretty blatant/massive corruption...i can understand criticizing the hyperbole but why does greenwald feel the need to "counter" this? what exactly is he trying to defend? he is no less of a ****ing idiot than romney...
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Glenn's belief is that the American establishment is as terrible or worse than Trump, just that they hide their crimes better. They want to get rid of Trump so they can preserve the old order, not out of any genuine concern about corruption.
Yes, this is the basis of my statement that he is a clown. It's a position born out of sheer contrarianism against mainstream liberalism.
 

Anil

Well-known member
Glenn's belief is that the American establishment is as terrible or worse than Trump, just that they hide their crimes better. They want to get rid of Trump so they can preserve the old order, not out of any genuine concern about corruption.
so what is the solution according to him?
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
How is calling him a clown for having a specific opinion in any way productive or interesting?

I actually largely agree with him. We both know we diasgree a lot, but I also know you don't think I'm a "clown". Your post just comes across as a silly ad hom.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Well-known member
Yes, this is the basis of my statement that he is a clown. It's a position born out of sheer contrarianism against mainstream liberalism.
Eh, I don't really think it has much to do with liberalism, it was formed out of what he saw from the government leading up to Iraq and just morphed into contrary takes. He's extremely online but no worse than most of the mainstream pundits and politics knowers.

so what is the solution according to him?
Probably abolishing the military.
 

grecian

Well-known member
Glenn's belief is that the American establishment is as terrible or worse than Trump, just that they hide their crimes better. They want to get rid of Trump so they can preserve the old order, not out of any genuine concern about corruption.
Yes, but in the end, Trump is a member of the Republican Party, which is one of the oldest political orders there is, this is what I will never get about this nonsense populism boom in the Us and Uk, it come's with the full help of the oldest most corrupt parties engineered to loving the status quo than any on earth. It is pure self-justifying bollocks IMHO.
 

RossTaylorsBox

Well-known member
Yes, but in the end, Trump is a member of the Republican Party, which is one of the oldest political orders there is, this is what I will never get about this nonsense populism boom in the Us and Uk, it come's with the full help of the oldest most corrupt parties engineered to loving the status quo than any on earth. It is pure self-justifying bollocks IMHO.
Right, but they didn't want Trump to win the primary in the first place. He was a joke candidate and everyone was planning on Bush vs. Clinton battle of the dynasties. They tolerate him because he won an election for them and McConnell can use him to install his chud judges, but it's not like he's helping them.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Eh, I don't really think it has much to do with liberalism, it was formed out of what he saw from the government leading up to Iraq and just morphed into contrary takes. He's extremely online but no worse than most of the mainstream pundits and politics knowers.
Didn't he support that war?

IIRC his slide into outright contrarianism happened more after 2012 under 2nd-term Obama.

How is calling him a clown for having a specific opinion in any way productive or interesting?

I actually largely agree with him. We both know we diasgree a lot, but I also know you don't think I'm a "clown". Your post just comes across as a silly ad hom.
Contrarianism is IMO the great plague of online opinions, by definition a stance with such a profound correlation with "not x" rather than a more solid underlying moral structure is pretty worthless.

I have other more comprehensive problems with Greenwald of course but that's the easiest one to describe.
 

grecian

Well-known member
Right, but they didn't want Trump to win the primary in the first place. He was a joke candidate and everyone was planning on Bush vs. Clinton battle of the dynasties. They tolerate him because he won an election for them and McConnell can use him to install his chud judges, but it's not like he's helping them.
Nonsensensical Ross, I am sorry, he is the Republican Party now, There is no anti-establishment about him, he is the establishhment, and the fact he has scandals around him is he's a scandalous person, as he has been throughout his life. All other candidates release their tax returns, he hasn't, just one of the reasons he's unfit for office. Did any of the main two party candidates set up a scandalous university or foundation, before they were even a political thing, did they suffer multiple bankruptcies?

He's a shyster, Glenn knows it too, so these arguments are those of a clown. Trump is more corrupt than those main parties combined, and I think those parties are really corrupt. So it is the worse amalgam in history an immoral man in front of a party full of horrid self-interested corruption over centuries. Can't see how anyone thinks it's a good idea to defend this ****.

Establishment, anti-establishment, bloody hell it's almost the worst of both combined, with none of the good points. it's pure horror.
 
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RossTaylorsBox

Well-known member
None of what I said is supposed to be a defense of Trump, he's a garbage human being who racisted his way to the presidency. I just think Russia is more trivial than a lot of other stuff.
 

grecian

Well-known member
None of what I said is supposed to be a defense of Trump, he's a garbage human being who racisted his way to the presidency. I just think Russia is more trivial than a lot of other stuff.
Nah, it's the reason he was elected, it's the reason he is more interested in doing the bidding of another country than his own, it's been the most evident point of his presidency, it's treason, but ya know as I say if he didn't block every avenue of investigating this, maybe I'd be proven wrong, but until he does it remains his entire presidency for me.

The entire thing of talking about other things of his awfulness, is irrelevant, he wouldn't be there without a social media and trollbot influence to get him elected in Putin's use, everything else is smokescreen, unless again he proves me wrong by allowing a totally open look at all these accusations, to prove how innocent he is.
 
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nightprowler10

Global Moderator
I don't know too much about GG aside from what I've seen relatively recently from his tweets and of course the surveillance stuff under Obama, but I've always gotten the gist that he posts tons to support the argument that Trump is just a symptom of the way this country has been operating for a long time now. I've vocally held this opinion as well going back to when he won the primary.

IIRC his slide into outright contrarianism happened more after 2012 under 2nd-term Obama.
So you mean around the time he and Snowden exposed all the govt surveillance stuff? Working on something like that would make anyone question literally everything they knew. Reckon that was a turning point for me as well politically.
 

Anil

Well-known member
I don't know too much about GG aside from what I've seen relatively recently from his tweets and of course the surveillance stuff under Obama, but I've always gotten the gist that he posts tons to support the argument that Trump is just a symptom of the way this country has been operating for a long time now. I've vocally held this opinion as well going back to when he won the primary.



So you mean around the time he and Snowden exposed all the govt surveillance stuff? Working on something like that would make anyone question literally everything they knew. Reckon that was a turning point for me as well politically.
but his positions lead him to these scenarios where he is for all intents and purposes supporting trump and the g.o.p...and he seems to be ok with that so far...
 
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