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The England Thread

andyc

Well-known member
BoyBrumby said:
It's pretty unforgivable. You only have to look at the total professionalism of the Germans when taking their penalties. All made their minds up early & stuck to their decisions. I don't think it was co-incidence that Lehmann "guessed" right for all the kicks either. Most penalty takers favour one side or the other; someone on the German staff had clearly done their homework.
Just on that, on SBS (the Australian foreign language/european soft-****/soccer channel), they were talking about the computer system the Germans used when analysing the opponent's penalties, and apparantly as each opposition penalty kicker was stepping up, Lehmann was handed a piece of paper telling him which way that kicker was going to shoot, which doesn't sound all too legal.
 

steds

Well-known member
andyc said:
Just on that, on SBS (the Australian foreign language/european soft-****/soccer channel), they were talking about the computer system the Germans used when analysing the opponent's penalties, and apparantly as each opposition penalty kicker was stepping up, Lehmann was handed a piece of paper telling him which way that kicker was going to shoot, which doesn't sound all too legal.
It's just as legal as someone handing Ian Bell a piece of paper telling him which way Warne turns it (by god, he needs that piece of paper).
 

Goughy

Well-known member
Barney Rubble said:
3. Lennon > Beckham
Will disagree to leave me massively outnumbered in CWLand.

The most obvious and easy to notice ability of any footballer is Pace. What happens is players with pace have their primary skill noticed by the general public and players with more sutble skills are not picked up on. Players with pace are generally overrated as people are just picking up on the obvious and neglecting the sutble.

Lennon would scare me a a defender but his quality of distribution and football brain is questionable.

Lennon did not make 1 decent ball in the game last night. The one that fell to Rooney actually bounced off Lennons foot in the opposite direction it was intended.

The WC is not the place for a seriously flawed footballer to learn his trade.

Lennon is very, very, quick and will scare defenders and draw fouls but he cannot do his required job of provideing quality distribution.

Pace is a complimentary skill in football and he does not have the core skills for it to compliment.
 
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steds

Well-known member
Goughy said:
Lennon would scare me a a defender but his quality of distribution <and football brain> is questionable.

Lennon did not make 1 decent ball in the game last night. The one that fell to Rooney actually bounced off Lennons foot in the opposite direction it was intended.
That's true, once you remove the silver bit.
 

Scaly piscine

Well-known member
Lennon is still much more of a threat than Beckham, who basically survives off the fact that he monopolises all the dead ball situations and so he's in a win-win situation because of the way 'the average fan's' brain works - it's like oh look he scored or set one up here, we can just gloss over all the ones he messed up, it's the same situation with chief poseur because of the sheer volume of opportunities he gets he'll inevitably do something whether it be set someone else up or score himself. If these opportunities happen to someone who's a bit gormless like Crouch people never forget anything he cocks up because he usually does it in style
 

Goughy

Well-known member
Define threat.
He can obviously go past a man, but that counts for naught if the 'killer' ball is not provided.

He is too raw to be playing for England, he needs time playing football and developing outside the England setup to refine and get better in the important areas.

As for the areas you mention about Beckham, they show that he does provide a threat (just not in the areas you want). Dead ball situations and setting players up is very important.
 

Scaly piscine

Well-known member
Goughy said:
Define threat.
He can obviously go past a man, but that counts for naught if the 'killer' ball is not provided.

He is too raw to be playing for England, he needs time playing football and developing outside the England setup to refine and get better in the important areas.

As for the areas you mention about Beckham, they show that he does provide a threat (just not in the areas you want). Dead ball situations and setting players up is very important.
Anyone would provide a threat if they take every dead ball situation, it's a matter of how often they post a threat. Beckham wastes far too many to be taking the free kicks and corners.

Lennon generally hasn't played when England have been attacking or trying to attack so this stuff about killer ball is academic.

Lennon produced England's best chance(s) against Portugal (from his run where some donkey miskicked with his left foot and then someone else lunged in and put it over the bar) and he created far more from open play than Beckham even tho Beckham had more people to aim for. Also Lennon actually goes forward with the ball and stays in position adding much more for the team, unlike Beckham who repeatedly kills all momentum by meandering infield or as is the usually the case cutting inside and continues turning anti-clockwise so he can his oh so precious right foot to kick the ball.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
aussie said:
Now do we have any hope that England can win any of these championships?

To be honest i don't really know, we certainly have the players capable of winning but this world cup was suppose to be our great chance of being world champions and we just blew it. England may go to South Africa in 2010 with a more experienced side, We may not have Beckham & Neville but blokes like Robinson may develop one of the better shot stopper in europe, Terry/Ferdinand could be the best central defense in europe along with Ash running things on the left, Rooney will probably be at his peak while Owen experience will be key, Gerrard & Lampard will be even more experienced, Lennon could develop into one of the best winger in europe & maybe Walcott may live up to the hype in 4 years.

But as Nevill said in his interview the conditions in South Africa will be though for England to play at their best & they might even get the group of death. Hopefully McClaren if he is coach for the next 4 years or whoever else might coach England can lift this side & try to change the mentality of our footballers, in the premiership these blokes play at top clubs where the pace of the game is very electric yet at international level for as long as i have been watching the national side they play at such a slow pace. Also maybe our tried and tested formation of 4-4-2 could become 3-5-2 in the future since looking at the squad i think England could do better with that formation even if it means probably sacrificing Cole (or maybe he could be transformed into a more central defender)

At Euro 2008 again we have a chance to be European champions, but we need to do a lot of things different. One very interesting thing though is how longer will Beckham stay in the international set-up...
Surely 3-5-2 would suit an attacking full-back as good as Cole. Centre-back surely wouldn't. IMO.
 

aussie

Well-known member
GeraintIsMyHero said:
Surely 3-5-2 would suit an attacking full-back as good as Cole. Centre-back surely wouldn't. IMO.
well good, i really think he can play in that formation because looking at a bloke like Heinze when he is at Man U, its 4-4-2 while for Argentina its 3-5-2 & he adapts well, he still makes runs down the left in either formation, Cole is definately better & should be able to adapt as well, because i really think having that holding mid-fielder in there is important for England in the future.

But then again playing 3 at the back could be a realistic problem because Neville could well & be in the international side for a good while yet & unless he dips in form which for me is unlikely you can't drop him.
 
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aussie

Well-known member
Goughy said:
Define threat.
He can obviously go past a man, but that counts for naught if the 'killer' ball is not provided.

He is too raw to be playing for England, he needs time playing football and developing outside the England setup to refine and get better in the important areas.
For the spurs last season he didn't look that raw or didn't show the mistakes that you mentioned, maybe its the pressure of the world cup that got to him.
 

Barney Rubble

Well-known member
Goughy said:
Will disagree to leave me massively outnumbered in CWLand.

The most obvious and easy to notice ability of any footballer is Pace. What happens is players with pace have their primary skill noticed by the general public and players with more sutble skills are not picked up on. Players with pace are generally overrated as people are just picking up on the obvious and neglecting the sutble.

Lennon would scare me a a defender but his quality of distribution and football brain is questionable.

Lennon did not make 1 decent ball in the game last night. The one that fell to Rooney actually bounced off Lennons foot in the opposite direction it was intended.

The WC is not the place for a seriously flawed footballer to learn his trade.

Lennon is very, very, quick and will scare defenders and draw fouls but he cannot do his required job of provideing quality distribution.

Pace is a complimentary skill in football and he does not have the core skills for it to compliment.
The way I see it is that there are different types of threats that suit different types of teams. The reason I say Lennon > Beckham is not so much based on his ability as a player, but on the way he fits into the England setup.

Beckham has always been a player who relies on whipping crosses in from deep positions. Crosses from deep can be very effective, but the kind of player necessary to get on the end of them is someone like Peter Crouch, who generally spends more time off the pitch than on it for England. You need someone tall, so that the cross can be put in at height to get it over the first defender if the man's going near post, and so that if the man's going far post, he can get above his defender to win the header.

With England's first-choice strike partnership of Owen and Rooney, however, Lennon is better suited to the role - he's capable of getting to the byline and beating his man, providing low crosses which suit the far shorter Owen and Rooney much better. He's also better suited to when England play high up the pitch and look to dominate the game - Beckham's long passing is wasted when we're not playing the counter-attacking game.
 

Pedro Delgado

Well-known member
Hate to say I told you so...

The contrast between the Germans and us at peno's is striking. The way I see it is they pick a corner, high or low, hit it hard, and do not bother about the 'keeper. It's about time we did the same. Odd how Carragher did this for his first disallowed attempt, high and hard, but then didn't for the second.

Whatever, if it goes to pens we're out and that's it, I've grown used to it over the years and was quite relaxed throughout.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
To be fair, there's plenty of candidates. Terry is obviously the favourite, but Gerrad would do a great job, even Gary Neville would be inspirational, but he'll be 35 when the next WC comes around, and I think we should be looking at having a skipper in place for four years.
 

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
I never thought I'd say it. But yes, I think Neville is capable of rousing his teammates, he wears his heart on his sleeve. Who would be your choice?
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
I still think JT is pretty nailed-on, but he hasn't been quite the rock for England this WC that he has been for Chelsea. Never thought I'd say it, but Rio has looked the sounder defensively of the two.

For mine the only other serious candidate (with Owen being crocked for the forseeable) is Stevie G, who, whilst he hasn't performed to quite the standards he attains for t'Pool, emerged further in credit than JT has this time around.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
An interesting suggestion I've seen today is for England to play 4 across the midfield - Cole, Hargreaves, Lampard and Gerrard (from left to right)

Of course, that would be OK if we had 2 world class strikers, but with Owen out till god knows when, I fear we're down to 1, and he's now suspended.

Thankfully the first competitive game is Andorra.
 
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