CW helps little NZ pick it's new flag

[hendrix]

It's a good choice, too, because it's something that's natural to the land in which we live - regardless if you're descended from the people who enabled us to be talking about this sport in this language going back 200 years to their arrival, or the first human inhabitants going back around a thousand, or recent migrants who have names that the first group mentioned have a hard time pronouncing. It's a natural icon, unique to this land.

It's a fern. Everywhere has ferns.

 

[Hurricane]

It's a fern. Everywhere has ferns.

Our most iconic food is probably the mince pie yet everywhere has that too and we didn't invent it.
Right after the mince pie is fish and chips. Yet that dish is huge in Jolly Old.
Barbecues in summer - Well Australia is probably more known than us for BBQs

Most of our culture is shared by other countries - even our kiwifruit is grown more in Chile I think.
Australia and even China have more sheep than us.

Would rather just pick something near and dear to our hearts than something that is unique. I don't mind us choosing something with a Maori tradition to it. But don't think it has to be that either.

 

[Flem274*]

mince pie flag

 

[Hurricane]

Three pages in and nobody has complained about the thread title yet.

If you are worried about him saying "little" New Zealand - then I don't think we are worried. GI Joe comes from India. Last time I checked they have how many people - wait I will google - 1.2 Billion according to Google. We have 4 million. So yes I would say we are little.

 

[hendrix]

Our most iconic food is probably the mince pie yet everywhere has that too and we didn't invent it.
Right after the mince pie is fish and chips. Yet that dish is huge in Jolly Old.
Barbecues in summer - Well Australia is probably more known than us for BBQs

Most of our culture is shared by other countries - even our kiwifruit is grown more in Chile I think.
Australia and even China have more sheep than us.

Would rather just pick something near and dear to our hearts than something that is unique. I don't mind us choosing something with a Maori tradition to it. But don't think it has to be that either.

That's not our most iconic food and kiwifruit is not part of our culture. The union jack is more a part of our culture than the silver fern. I don't want either on our flag.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Agent TBY needs to brush up on his memes.

 

[Agent TBY]

If you are worried about him saying "little" New Zealand - then I don't think we are worried. GI Joe comes from India. Last time I checked they have how many people - wait I will google - 1.2 Billion according to Google. We have 4 million. So yes I would say we are little.

Nah, just that its wrong.

Agent TBY needs to brush up on his memes.

Wow. Guess I was blind to you're intent.

 

[hendrix]

yes. G.I. Joe is intent.

 

[Flem274*]

The union jack is more a part of our culture than the silver fern.

speak for yourself

 

[hendrix]

speak for yourself

OK, but I'm saying neither is particularly representative.

 

[Hurricane]

OK, but I'm saying neither is particularly representative.

I think that is your opinion only and most people would say the fern is iconic. You are right about the union jack no longer being representative

 

[hendrix]

The silver fern is highly iconic of a couple of sports teams, sure. Please note that iconic is different to representative, or even symbolic.

I'd like to think that the country's people deserve more than to be represented by a sports icon that symbolises nothing about the country nor its inhabitants other than the fact that it's probably a subtropical climate (i.e. ferns grow there!!!) and they do disproportionately well at the olympics.

I realise that sport is a big part of our culture but it's embarrassing to consider it to represent us as a people.

Not that I'm particularly nationalistic or anything. I care far more about people than countries. But I do take pride in our culture. And our culture is not well represented by the silver fern.

 

[hendrix]

Anyway, last week I flew across to Melbourne and Sydney for my cousin's 21st and a couple of job interviews.

My brother and sister and I had picked out a haka for my cousin and changed the words around a little to make it suit the occasion. On the day of the 21st I read in the local paper about the trouble Adam Goodes had been having and saw on the news his spear throwing dance, and the fact that people had deemed this as a violent act.

I think something inherent in our culture is that even the raving racists understand how strange it is to translate "haka" as "war dance". I think we also understand that, in the right context, "provocative" and "intimidating" and even "inciteful" are not negative words. I made a point of explaining what this particular haka meant after we did it, which seemed to go down with with the Aussies.

This has been a very Hurricane-esque post...I think the point I'm coming to is that NZ is fundamentally a bicultural society and its flag should represent that.

 

[Hurricane]

The silver fern is highly iconic of a couple of sports teams, sure. Please note that iconic is different to representative, or even symbolic.

I'd like to think that the country's people deserve more than to be represented by a sports icon that symbolises nothing about the country nor its inhabitants other than the fact that it's probably a subtropical climate (i.e. ferns grow there!!!) and they do disproportionately well at the olympics.

I realise that sport is a big part of our culture but it's embarrassing to consider it to represent us as a people.

Not that I'm particularly nationalistic or anything. I care far more about people than countries. But I do take pride in our culture. And our culture is not well represented by the silver fern.

Well put argument. I may need some time to respond. I guess my knee jerk reaction is to say that sports have been very very important to our nationhood. New Zealand since the 1880s according to my Keith Sinclair history book has been overly obsessed with "how we hold up on the world stage". And we are still obsessed with it today. Sports and men in black singlets and women too with a silver fern emblazened on their chest have been placing us on the world stage.

What else have we really done to get on the world stage? I guess Rutherford I suppose but really no one talks about him in Canada when I was there. Hillary definitely so I will pay that out. Kiri te Kanawa is surprisingly well known overseas and possibly more famous in some parts of the world than she is back here. But those examples notwithstanding sports is a big part of solidifying us.

Perhaps our greatest moment in our nation from my perspective was that day at Hamilton when the protestors stormed the pitch and then got beaten up for their beliefs by the fans. That was where politics intersected sports. It caught our imagination because apartheid was involved and because also it was rugby.

If there was some iconic item from the arts world would you feel better about that? and if so why? I could argue that the world of arts doesn't totally represent all of us.

What are the iconic things about New Zealand - there are a few

The Silver fern
Jandals (can't really put them on a flag)
Pavlovas (ditto)
The Koru (yes a serious contender for a flag)
The Kiwi (Yes I suppose you could put this on a flag at a pinch but it would be odd)
Steinlagers
The song Pokere Kere Ana
The Haka

Choices are slim for flag quality icons/symbols

Sure it doesn't have to be an icon or a symbol. But I think unless it is a something iconic it won't beat the old flag which has a powerful powerful lobby group of old timers supporting it.

 

[hendrix]

Read my other post made directly above yours.

Our identity is not what the world thinks of us. It's what we think of ourselves. It's imperative for a symbol of our identity to be representative of our biculturalism. I think that's more important than sport.

 

[Flem274*]

i might be alone but when i see the silver fern i think "New Zealand/Aotearoa" more than "kiwi sports team"

 

[Flem274*]

P.S. we should absolutely change/alter our name to the english translation of Aotearoa, but maybe the more concise "Long White Cloud Land"

 

[Hurricane]

Anyway, last week I flew across to Melbourne and Sydney for my cousin's 21st and a couple of job interviews.

My brother and sister and I had picked out a haka for my cousin and changed the words around a little to make it suit the occasion. On the day of the 21st I read in the local paper about the trouble Adam Goodes had been having and saw on the news his spear throwing dance, and the fact that people had deemed this as a violent act.

I think something inherent in our culture is that even the raving racists understand how strange it is to translate "haka" as "war dance". I think we also understand that, in the right context, "provocative" and "intimidating" and even "inciteful" are not negative words. I made a point of explaining what this particular haka meant after we did it, which seemed to go down with with the Aussies.

This has been a very Hurricane-esque post...I think the point I'm coming to is that NZ is fundamentally a bicultural society and its flag should represent that.

Read my other post made directly above yours.

Our identity is not what the world thinks of us. It's what we think of ourselves. It's imperative for a symbol of our identity to be representative of our biculturalism. I think that's more important than sport.

We are much much more than a bicultural society. We have more New Zealandish things about us than our Maori heritage.

When I missed New Zealand and came back here to live it certainly wasn't for the Maori heritage. Last thing on my mind. What was on my mind was the fact that I knew everyone would have similar social skills to me and conduct themselves with the same etticut that I do. And that is exactly what has transpired. There is an X factor that binds us no matter if you are Maori, Asian, or Pakeha and that X factor is what needs to be on the flag and not necessarily something Maori unless you can argue the Maori icon you are proposing is that x factor.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

to say the silver fern isn't a NZ icon is serious devils advocate ****. Yeah it started as a sports thing, but it's way past that now.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

etticut

I don't like the etti cut of your jib... And I fear that you've proved KiwiVictor right.