An Australian XI That Never played Tests

[jimmy101]

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Not all that incriminating imo. Just take a look at Brett Lee's action. In this picture Lee's arm is bent similarly to Gilbert's at shoulder height, arguably even closer to the point of release than Gilbert.

 

[stephen]

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding of what the White Australia Policy was and why it was introduced. The White Australia Policy was a immigration policy which banned all non- European immigrants. It was pushed for by the labour movement of the late 1800s. The unions of the day wanted to create a workers paradise of sorts and they recognised that their power and influence would be severely under cut by cheap immigrant labour from the South Sea Islands, India and China. They were not threatened by aboriginal labour because aboriginal culture meant that they were very poor workers by European standards (culturally they didn't really understand the concept of work for hire or being tied to a location for long periods).

So the union movement which later became the labor party pushed heavily against immigration from non- European countries where they believed the workers were poorer, harder working and less inclined to want better living conditions. In the 1880s the first of the laws came through which ultimately lead to the forced deportation of thousands of South Sea Island laborers around the turn of the 20th century. It was in fact a key factor in federating.

The effect this had on a number of industries, particularly the sugar industry was transformative. Previously, sugar plantations were large and had huge south sea islander workforces. Combined with the end of the US civil war, the production of sugar beets in Europe the sugar price crashed. Pretty much all of the plantation owners had to subdivide and sell their properties as they were not financially viable with European labour. This lead to modern small scale farms where the labour was mostly the owner and their family.

The labour movement grew in power and formed the Australian Labor Party and their immigration policies were not reversed for half a century.

Aboriginal affairs are an entirely different set of racist policies with a different set of causes and drivers.

 

[Starfighter]

Because nobody has ever insinuated anything about Lee's action. Plus that photo is taken from quite a different angle, the bend in Lee's arm would be much less visible from the front. While it's hard to tell from so few pictures Gilbert's action looks very similar to Griffith's, with the highly tilted body, arm coming from behind the back and elbow bent.

 

[the big bambino]

Interestingly the match where Gilbert was repeatedly no-balled happened to be match where he injured several NSW batsmen with his searing bouncers. Not sure if those two details are connected or not though.

"Controversy still rages over the question of possible racial discrimination relating to Eddie Gilbert's career. There seems little doubt that he was discriminated against as an Aborigine. He was escorted constantly by white bureaucrats and cricket officials and the constant slurs on his bowling style are reminiscent of similar innuendoes against the earlier Aboriginal cricketers Jack Marsh and Albert Henry." Link: Biography - Edward (Eddie) Gilbert - Australian Dictionary of Biography

Former Australian Test batsman Warren Bardsley recalled that the reason Gilbert's forbearer Jack Marsh had been kept out of big cricket was his colour.

Gilbert was only called for chucking against Victoria not NSW. The no balling v NSW may well have been against South Australia and was for intimidation not throwing. Again it seems unfair to me from what I've read. It also contradicts Evans's comment that Gilbert lost pace when modifying his action. The context around Gibert being escorted is misleading. He needed permission to play by the protector but I don't recall an official from any department accompanying him on tour. Touring was expensive and teams went travelled light. I think just the 12 players. I don't recall if they had a manager accompanying them though his captain may have been given responsibility for handling him - though he would have been responsible for all his team.

Albert Henry was never called for throwing in fc cricket. He was in club cricket but that didn't hinder his fc career. He played 7 matches and his general form and the fact he was playing for what would be described on CW as a minnow state, explains his non selection for Australia. Marsh's is the most suspicious case. But while he appears to be the best bowler of the lot he also seemed to have the most suspicious action.

 

[jimmy101]

Sadly we'll never know the truth as it was so long ago, but the fact that every prominent Aboriginal FC cricketer pre-1939 was branded a "chucker" & barred from the game is pretty alarming. Not only were they kept out of the Australian team, but they had their careers & reputations destroyed by the cricketing establishment. On the flipside, here is a picture of Dainty Ironmonger, who was active in the same time frame as Gilbert & had questions surrounding his action, was never once no-balled for throwing.

 

[the big bambino]

Sadly we'll never know the truth as it was so long ago, but the fact that every prominent Aboriginal FC cricketer pre-1939 was branded a "chucker" & barred from the game is pretty alarming. Not only were they kept out of the Australian team, but they had their careers & reputations destroyed by the cricketing establishment. On the flipside, here is a picture of Dainty Ironmonger, who was active in the same time frame as Gilbert & had questions surrounding his action, was never once no-balled for throwing.

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None of Marsh, Henry or Gilbert were barred from the game, let alone for throwing. All played on after being called. There were suspicions over Ironmonger but from that picture its inconclusive tending toward legitimate imo. There was talk he never toured England because of rumours about his action. That may have been strategic. If he toured there he would have been considered an atg bowler imo.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Sadly we'll never know the truth as it was so long ago, but the fact that every prominent Aboriginal FC cricketer pre-1939 was branded a "chucker" & barred from the game is pretty alarming.

There seems to be a bit of people wanting to assume the worst, rather than thinking logically and with restraint

 

[Starfighter]

There seems to be a bit of people wanting to assume the worst, rather than thinking logically and with restraint

It might just be, coincidentally, that all three did actually throw, or at least looked suspect enough to raise doubts. Maybe they were treated more harshly for this because they were Aboriginal? I don't know. Very fast bowler having doubts raised about their action is hardly an uncommon story, and some bowlers had their careers destroyed and others went on until they were dropped for form or what have you.

 

[jimmy101]

There seems to be a bit of people wanting to assume the worst, rather than thinking logically and with restraint

You've got to consider that, whilst Gilbert did indeed play for QLD as pointed out by TBB, even his own teammates often refused to even talk to him in the dressing room & would even at times deliberately run him out when batting. Considering that he famously knocked the "Boy wonder" Bradman's cap off his head & the bat out of his hand, it's by no means illogical to investigate the possibility that Gilbert was seen as a threat to the establishment & the chucking assertions levelled against him was a method to circumvent him from achieving as much as he could have.

This was of course a time when Aus/Eng had no problems playing against racist South Africa, the Windies were mostly captained by white people only & Indian cricket was affected by casteism. In fact, a similar case to Gilbert's was the Indian bowler, Palwankar Baloo.

Outside of cricket, a lot of people were struggling with Jack Johnson being world heavyweight champion, baseball & basketball in the US was divided along the lines of colour, black (and Jewish) people were not admitted into high profile golf clubs. Sir Douglas Nicholls tried out to play for Carlton Football Club but was rejected because of his "colour and his smell". White sprinters often refused to run against indigenous runners, whilst the Queensland Amateur Athletic Association attempted to disbar all aborigines from athletics due to them "lacking moral character and lacking intelligence".

I'm not assuming the worst by any means, I just feel that a deep dive is required before coming to the conclusion that Gilbert & the rest of the Indigenous cricketers of the day were chuckers.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It might just be, coincidentally, that all three did actually throw, or at least looked suspect enough to raise doubts. Maybe they were treated more harshly for this because they were Aboriginal? I don't know. Very fast bowler having doubts raised about their action is hardly an uncommon story, and some bowlers had their careers destroyed and others went on until they were dropped for form or what have you.

I think that's almost certainly the case. Funny how people like to go to extremes, either "he was a horrible chucker" or "his action was fine it was pure racism".

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Dainty Ironmonger, who was active in the same time frame as Gilbert & had questions surrounding his action, was never once no-balled for throwing.

Looking at newspaper reports, the only questions raised about Ironmonger's action were by the English before the 1928 series when hardly any of them would have actually seen him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Spinners being called for chucking wasn't as big back then was it? Wouldn't surprise me if there were a few spinners with dodgy actions around that just weren't looked into because the assumption was that it was only the fast bowlers that got a big advantage from chucking.

 

[the big bambino]

You've got to consider that, whilst Gilbert did indeed play for QLD as pointed out by TBB, even his own teammates often refused to even talk to him in the dressing room & would even at times deliberately run him out when batting. Considering that he famously knocked the "Boy wonder" Bradman's cap off his head & the bat out of his hand, it's by no means illogical to investigate the possibility that Gilbert was seen as a threat to the establishment & the chucking assertions levelled against him was a method to circumvent him from achieving as much as he could have.

This was of course a time when Aus/Eng had no problems playing against racist South Africa, the Windies were mostly captained by white people only & Indian cricket was affected by casteism. In fact, a similar case to Gilbert's was the Indian bowler, Palwankar Baloo.

Outside of cricket, a lot of people were struggling with Jack Johnson being world heavyweight champion, baseball & basketball in the US was divided along the lines of colour, black (and Jewish) people were not admitted into high profile golf clubs. Sir Douglas Nicholls tried out to play for Carlton Football Club but was rejected because of his "colour and his smell". White sprinters often refused to run against indigenous runners, whilst the Queensland Amateur Athletic Association attempted to disbar all aborigines from athletics due to them "lacking moral character and lacking intelligence".

I'm not assuming the worst by any means, I just feel that a deep dive is required before coming to the conclusion that Gilbert & the rest of the Indigenous cricketers of the day were chuckers.

While all true its not the whole story. For eg some team mates were friendly to him. Playing against SA then would have been as non controversial as playing against Zimbabwe now or even India now. The comment on India being dependent on whether discrimination in its caste system is still relevant. I've heard rumours that WI Indians may have felt sidelined in their golden years. Players like Gilbert weren't relegated to black leagues either.

 

[jimmy101]

Looking at newspaper reports, the only questions raised about Ironmonger's action were by the English before the 1928 series when hardly any of them would have actually seen him.

Regardless, Ironmonger wasn't subjected to the same scrutiny as Gilbert & the others, which indicates a discrepancy in the standards of the time.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Regardless, Ironmonger wasn't subjected to the same scrutiny as Gilbert & the others, which indicates a discrepancy in the standards of the time.

No it doesn't. You've just assumed that Ironmonger's action was equally suspect as Gilbert's and the only reason for the difference in levels of scrutiny was race.

You keep making a lot of assumptions

(ftr I'm sure there was a discrepancy in standards and race was a factor in Gilbert's case, but the example of Ironmonger doesn't indicate anything)

 

[jimmy101]

While all true its not the whole story. For eg some team mates were friendly to him. Playing against SA then would have been as non controversial as playing against Zimbabwe now or even India now. The comment on India being dependent on whether discrimination in its caste system is still relevant. I've heard rumours that WI Indians may have felt sidelined in their golden years. Players like Gilbert weren't relegated to black leagues either.

Agree that the Zim & Indian boards of today are somewhat dubious, they by no means have an unwritten policy in place which prevents a player from representing the team on the basis of colour/religion. And besides, only in South Africa were "negro leagues" a thing. But I'm sure many of the lobbyists in the Australian FC setup of the time would have been pleased to see Australian cricket go down the same path.

 

[the big bambino]

The story I've heard about Ironmonger was that it was spread by Hendren after the 28/29 series. I can't verify it but the story goes Hendren spread the rumour because if Ironmonger was selected for the 1930 series, England would have lost 5-0 and "we couldn't have that happen, could we?"

 

[jimmy101]

No it doesn't. You've just assumed that Ironmonger's action was equally suspect as Gilbert's and the only reason for the difference in levels of scrutiny was race.

You keep making a lot of assumptions

(ftr I'm sure there was a discrepancy in standards and race was a factor in Gilbert's case, but the example of Ironmonger doesn't indicate anything)

I don't understand what you're getting at tbh. Out of one side of your mouth you're saying Gilbert was a chucker, out of the other you're saying his race played a role in his downfall. Which is it?

And yes, it does actually. As soon as throwing allegations were pressed against Gilbert has was tested extensively. As for Ironmonger, nothing.

 

[morgieb]

maybe, but from what I've read he was probably a genuine chucker as well



His selection wasn't surprising at the time. He may not have had incredible stats but on his day he was fast and could get anyone out in domestic cricket. He had a bit of X-factor about him which probably thrust him ahead of more line-and-length type operators.

IIRC hadn't his pace kind of depreciated by the time he made his Test debut? From my understanding his raw pace was a very early career thing.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't understand what you're getting at tbh. Out of one side of your mouth you're saying Gilbert was a chucker, out of the other you're saying his race played a role in his downfall. Which is it?

And yes, it does actually. As soon as throwing allegations were pressed against Gilbert has was tested extensively. As for Ironmonger, nothing.

what part don't you understand?

I agree that there was clearly some racial discrimination going on. But the example of Ironmonger not being tested isn't proof of anything. As Bambino is getting at, there was very possibly little reason to suspect Ironmonger relative to Gilbert, which is much more likely to be the reason for the difference in the treatment of those 2 specifically than just assuming it was because of race.

IIRC hadn't his pace kind of depreciated by the time he made his Test debut? From my understanding his raw pace was a very early career thing.

from memory he was very hot and cold. He was pretty ordinary in the Tests I saw him play in 03-04 but that same season he looked unplayable, and very quick, in one of the ODIs. Pretty sure his fitness was an issue too. Wasn't the slimmest of fast bowlers.