Good Muslim, bad Muslim

[Raghav]

Tariq Ramadan argues for a new understanding of what it means to be a “moderate” Muslim.

New Statesman - Good Muslim, bad Muslim

 

[Craig]

This will go down a treat. In before it shuts.

 

[Uppercut]

It's a pretty interesting article, in fairness. Raises a lot of good points.

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

Yip, a very interesting read.

 

[silentstriker]

Yea, good article I thought - well written and some good points, even if I disagree with some of it.


Anyway, on a slightly related note - what do people think about the banning of the burqa in France?

 

[G.I.Joe]

Yeah, we get it, SS. You went to Paris.

 

[biased indian]

Yeah, we get it, SS. You went to Paris.

may be he wanted it to happen before he went so that he would have got the chance to see the Muslim girls also

 

[silentstriker]

Errr...I don't get it? It's in the news a lot and directly related to what he talked about the fear of "islamization" of Europe - which is the reason a lot of people give for it.

 

[_Ed_]

what do people think about the banning of the burqa in France?

It's a debate I find hard to get involved in. I don't agree at all with France's reasons for banning it, but at the same time I don't feel entirely comfortable coming out in favour of burqa-wearing - it's true that I probably lack understanding of the culture and the reasons behind it, but I'm opposed to women being required to wear them.

But yeah, I don't like their reasons for banning it and I don't think legislating against displays of cultural difference is a remotely clever way of promoting harmony and peaceful integration or quelling any perceived threat.

The minaret ban in Switzerland is one I do feel really strongly about. Absolutely disgusted by it.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Errr...I don't get it? It's in the news a lot and directly related to what he talked about the fear of "islamization" of Europe - which is the reason a lot of people give for it.

i was just pulling your leg, monsieur.

 

[silentstriker]

It's a debate I find hard to get involved in. I don't agree at all with France's reasons for banning it, but at the same time I don't feel entirely comfortable coming out in favour of burqa-wearing - it's true that I probably lack understanding of the culture and the reasons behind it, but I'm opposed to women being required to wear them.

But yeah, I don't like their reasons for banning it and I don't think legislating against displays of cultural difference is a remotely clever way of promoting harmony and peaceful integration or quelling any perceived threat.

The minaret ban in Switzerland is one I do feel really strongly about. Absolutely disgusted by it.

I completely agree with that - the banning of minarets makes no sense at all. The burqa question is entirely different though. The question is do societies have a right to enforce their 'secularity' on someone? I mean, most western societies are thankfully based on the principles of enlightnement, which forbid many things - like female circumcision for example, regardless of your religious beliefs. Now, covering your face is hardly the same as child genital mutilation, and I am not comparing the two - but should a society expect that people who want to be part of that society agree and follow those secular values?

Now, there is a distinction here, because the question is not secular vs. religious, but sometimes it's Christians vs. Muslims - and that's a separate issue. But as far as I know, in France, they've also banned the wearing of crosses in schools. That at least is consistent - but they haven't banned the wearing of crosses in public, which is what this law is about. So if you're going be secular - fine, be secular - but be secular consistently.

I think this issue is not really that big a deal, what's a bigger deal are things like Sharia courts in Europe. That to me is the biggest betrayal of the enlightenment as you can possibly get. That should be the much bigger issue. How do you legalize a court like that? Now, the same goes for Jewish courts and others.

 

[pasag]

I think this issue is not really that big a deal, what's a bigger deal are things like Sharia courts in Europe. That to me is the biggest betrayal of the enlightenment as you can possibly get. That should be the much bigger issue. How do you legalize a court like that? Now, the same goes for Jewish courts and others.

What do you mean? They have no legal power aside from if the two willing parties make an agreement to accept their judgement. And that's only with civil matters anyways.

 

[silentstriker]

What do you mean? They have no legal power aside from if the two willing parties make an agreement to accept their judgement. And that's only with civil matters anyways.

It's the same with the Islamic courts. The problem is, at least in the Muslim community, is the potential for intimidation to go to those courts. For example, in a court case in Britain where property was distributed to children when the father was deceased, the men got twice as much as the women. In a British civil court, they all would have gotten an equal amount.

 

[Goughy]

On the tread topic, I had a speaker today. He was an Islamic academic who is a specialist in Muslim culture around the world. In no way are his thoughts my own or anyone I am associated with. I include them just as his opinions address 'good' Muslims and 'bad' Muslims.

His thoughts on this:
The heart of the problem in the Muslim world is the form of Islam coming from Saudi Arabia. Most Muslims outside Saudi Arabia do not agree with it and the more conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, fuelled by pertro-dollars, coming out of Saudi is causing huge problems. The Arabization of the Muslim world is hurting the Islamic world.

He continued

"There is criticism from within the Muslim world but it is a small voice and not enough is being done by the USA and Europe to criticise the Saudi Wahhabi form of Islam. The West needs to focus on this and the source of the money that finances its expansion"

 

[Kweek]

On the tread topic, I had a speaker today. He was an Islamic academic who is a specialist in Muslim culture around the world. In no way are his thoughts my own or anyone I am associated with. I include them just as his opinions address 'good' Muslims and 'bad' Muslims.

His thoughts on this:
The heart of the problem in the Muslim world is the form of Islam coming from Saudi Arabia. Most Muslims outside Saudi Arabia do not agree with it and the more conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, fuelled by pertro-dollars, coming out of Saudi is causing huge problems. The Arabization of the Muslim world is hurting the Islamic world.

He continued

"There is criticism from within the Muslim world but it is a small voice and not enough is being done by the USA and Europe to criticise the Saudi Wahhabi form of Islam. The West needs to focus on this and the source of the money that finances its expansion"

I agree with this man completely and I'm pretty sure most people would agree with me.
The topic muslim is extreamly hot in Holland, especially since our governement just collapsed over the Iraq war (don't ask how)

Most of you probably know Geert Wilders if not he's the guy in Dutch politics saying we should kick out all muslims out of The Netherlands, yet if someone says his views are Hitleresque he sues them for it :').
Atm in the polls 3 months before we vote, he's currently the 2nd biggest party (Say the sometimes questionable polls) I think every intelligent person in the Netherlands is thinking ''why did we let dumb people vote again?'' this was in jest of course, but I'm extreamly annoyed by the way people view the turks and maroccans in The Netherlands.
When you play cricket in The Netherlands you connect with people from a lot of different cultures very easily this combined with the fact that my girlfriend her parents adopted children from all over the world, I know damn well that 95% of the 'muslims'(I like to view people as individualists not as a religious group) are perfectly fine hard working and honest people, the problem is that 5% that follow the far more extremist views which the media loves to make a big deal out of.

 

[Craig]

It's a debate I find hard to get involved in. I don't agree at all with France's reasons for banning it, but at the same time I don't feel entirely comfortable coming out in favour of burqa-wearing - it's true that I probably lack understanding of the culture and the reasons behind it, but I'm opposed to women being required to wear them.

But yeah, I don't like their reasons for banning it and I don't think legislating against displays of cultural difference is a remotely clever way of promoting harmony and peaceful integration or quelling any perceived threat.

The minaret ban in Switzerland is one I do feel really strongly about. Absolutely disgusted by it.

So what you were saying is, you don't think they should wear the burqa as a requirement, but if they choose to wear it, then that is their choice?

 

[Fusion]

Fareed Zakaria wrote an excellent article recently in Newsweek in which he contends that the moderates in the Muslim world took on and defeated the extremists.

How moderate Muslim leaders waged war on extremists - and won.

The article is long, but really worth reading. Here are some main points:

- Since the ascension of King Abdullah to the throne in 2005, Saudia Arabia has been seriously cracking down on extremists that before had gone untouched. "Mullahs were ordered to denounce suicide bombings, and violence more generally. Education was pried out of the hands of the clerics. Terrorists and terror suspects were "rehabilitated" through extensive programs of education, job training, and counseling." As a result, Al Qaeda has lost its main source of financial support and symbolic base of power.

- The brutality that Al Qaeda displayed in the Iraq war and the sectarian wars it ignited repulsed the local and world-wide Muslim population. As a result, though it may have gained militarily in Iraq, it lost politically and in the court of public opinion. Losing the battle of hearts and minds is crippling to an organization like that.

- Prominent Muslim leaders world-wide increasingly and forcefully condemned the extremists and jihadism.

- Public opinion in the Muslim world has turned overwhelmingly against the extremists.


All of the above is not to claim that the battle against extremism is over in the Muslim world. Far from it, in fact. However, the "ideological" battle for the soul of the Muslim world has been won by the moderates, and that is the key event that was needed to achieve an eventual goal of ridding the extremists from their sanctuaries.

 

[Uppercut]

I completely agree with that - the banning of minarets makes no sense at all. The burqa question is entirely different though. The question is do societies have a right to enforce their 'secularity' on someone? I mean, most western societies are thankfully based on the principles of enlightnement, which forbid many things - like female circumcision for example, regardless of your religious beliefs. Now, covering your face is hardly the same as child genital mutilation, and I am not comparing the two - but should a society expect that people who want to be part of that society agree and follow those secular values?

Now, there is a distinction here, because the question is not secular vs. religious, but sometimes it's Christians vs. Muslims - and that's a separate issue. But as far as I know, in France, they've also banned the wearing of crosses in schools. That at least is consistent - but they haven't banned the wearing of crosses in public, which is what this law is about. So if you're going be secular - fine, be secular - but be secular consistently.

I think this issue is not really that big a deal, what's a bigger deal are things like Sharia courts in Europe. That to me is the biggest betrayal of the enlightenment as you can possibly get. That should be the much bigger issue. How do you legalize a court like that? Now, the same goes for Jewish courts and others.

I hate burqas with a passion, in the same way I hate tracksuit bottoms tucked into socks. They're absolutely hideous. Not that I'd want them banned or anything, but yeah, eww at burqas.

Banning an item of clothing you don't like is pathetic. Ironically it's something I'd expect a theocratic Muslim country to do.

 

[Uppercut]

The minaret ban in Switzerland is one I do feel really strongly about. Absolutely disgusted by it.

That's odd. Personally I don't give a damn about oddball Swiss laws. If you're in a foreign country and they don't like minarets then don't build any minarets.

 

[PhoenixFire]

I hate burqas with a passion, in the same way I hate tracksuit bottoms tucked into socks. They're absolutely hideous. Not that I'd want them banned or anything, but yeah, eww at burqas.

Banning an item of clothing you don't like is pathetic. Ironically it's something I'd expect a theocratic Muslim country to do.

It's not really about not just liking it though. I personally don't like them because it is such an obvious act of segregation and a very extreme form of anti-socialism (not in a political sense). It's just why we don't raise our kids to walk around with balaclavas on, it adds nothing towards a modern, racially cohesive society. If it was up to me, I'd ban them in all schools, hospitals and other public buildings (like courts and other government run offices) to start with.