Poll2: Playing Selector: Opening Bowlers for Subcontinental AT XI

[watson]

In some ways it would be better to select the format before the players.That is, it makes sense to choose one of the following formats first so that we know what direction we are heading in;

01. Opener
02. Opener
03. Middle-Order Batsman
04. Middle-Order Batsman
05. Middle-Order Batsman
06. Wicket-Keeper
07. Bowling Allrounder
08. Bowling Allrounder
09. Bowler
10. Bowler
11. Bowler

Or

01. Opener
02. Opener
03. Middle-Order Batsman
04. Middle-Order Batsman
05. Middle-Order Batsman
06. Batting Allrounder
07. Bowling Allrounder
08. Bowling Allrounder
09. Wicket-Keeper
10. Bowler
11. Bowler

Or

01. Opener
02. Opener
03. Middle-Order Batsman
04. Middle-Order Batsman
05. Middle-Order Batsman
06. Batting Allrounder
07. Wicket-Keeper
08. Bowling Allrounder
09. Bowler
10. Bowler
11. Bowler

Etc

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Like any team, the players available will go a long way to dictate the format the team takes. I do much prefer a 6 best bats, wk and bowlers myself. I am not surprised at all the Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Murali and Kapil attacks by poll voters, in a line up consisting of

6 Sangakarra
7 Dev
8 Khan
9 Akram
10 Waqar
11 Murali.

But I do feel that Dev will be pinching Rahul Dravid's or Younis Khan's batting spot. For team balance if a 5th bowlers is so demanded, I actually think Mushtaq Mohammad would be a better selection than Dev, or even Sanath Jyasuriya for that matter. But I really question the enthusiasm some people have for Dev's inclusion when the great batsmen are not making the team. 4 opening bowlers and the greatest spinner of all time - a little excessive even with Sanga, Imran and Kapil's batting.

I like the way Benaud would break his team down into compartments, opener, middle order, all rounder, opening bowlers etc, and then when it came to produce the final XI, chose the best XI and ignored his own prior compartments to quite an extent.

I think the team is weaker with Dev, and if not a frontline batsman like Younis Khan (or Rahul Dravid who would otherwise bat higher but my point is that a great batsman will lose his spot in this team) to bat at 6 with Sanga at 7 then a better batsman is needed like Jayasuriya or Mustaq Mohammad is needed if a 5th bowler is thought to be so crucial - but 4 opening bowlers and the greatest spinner - that is bowler heavy and detracts from the balance that the team may otherwise have. Batting deep is important as some ATG teams may well have Bradman batting and some will have SF Barnes bowling.

I think the best and fairest thing for this team would be to "lock in" Murali, Imran, Wasim and Waqar, with Sanga, and then think about 5th bowling options with the top and middle order, and leave batting spot 6 or 7 open for a separate poll at the end which would include:

the great batsmen who have missed out on team selection - top or middle order, with every vote for a batsman counted as so and the highest voted batsman selected

Kapil Dev or a bowling allrounder, with every vote for a bowling all rounder counted as so and the highest voted bowling allrounder selected

Mushtaq Mohammad, Sanath Jayasuriya etc. with every vote for a batting allrounder counted as so and the highest voted batting allrounder selected

But that is just my idea and opinion, of course.

 

[watson]

Good points Grumps. The lower order was always going to be 1 of 4 choices (give or take);

Choice 1
06. Kumar Sangakkarra
07. Kapil Dev
08. Imran Khan
09. Wasim Akram
10. Waqar Younis
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Choice 2
06. Vinoo Mankad
07. Kapil Dev
08. Imran Khan
09. Syed Kirmani
10. Wasim Akram
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Choice 3
06. Vinoo Mankad
07. Imran Khan
08. Syed Kirmani
09. Wasim Akram
10. Waqar Younis
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Choice 4
06. Vinoo Mankad
07. Farokh Engineer
08. Imran Khan
09. Wasim Akram
10. Waqar Younis
11. Muttiah Muralitharan

Because I think it a complete waste to use one of the greatest batsman of all time as a wicket-keeper I would tend toward one of the latter 3 choices, and centre the debate around -

Waqar V Kapil Dev
Kirmani V Engineer V another keeper
Mankad V another batting allrounder

My personal preference is Choice 2 or 4. But honestly, any of those lower orders will do.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Wow. I don't see Mankad making this team at all, but yeah, put him against Jayasuriya and Mustaq Mohammad and Younis Khan/VVS Laxman (2 likely batsmen to miss out), and Kapil Dev for that 6 spot with Sanga at 7. Does Shakib go as a batting or bowling allrounder? Probably fair to call him a batting allrounder in tests who bowls very well and it probably does not matter as he is not much chance of winning but I would possibly prefer him to Dev in the context of those players already "locked in".

You will be going against the grain for Sanga not to win the keeper's gloves.

I mean the top 4 will most likely be:

Gavaskar,
Sehwag,
Dravid,
Tendulkar,

That is going to be tough to get Javed Miandad, Hanif Mohammad, Mushtaq Mohammad, Anwar, Inzi, Yousuf, Younis, Jayawardene, De Silva,Jayasuriya, Vengasarkar, Laxman, etc etc all squeezed into spot 5.

 

[watson]

Wow. I don't see Mankad making this team at all, but yeah, put him against Jayasuriya and Mustaq Mohammad and Younis Khan/VVS Laxman, and Kapil Dev for that 6 spot with Sanga at 7.

You will be going against the grain for Sanga not to win the keeper's gloves.

Mankad suffered because he had to open the batting as well as bowl the bulk of the overs. If he didn't have to face the new ball, and was instead used as a strike bowler like many allrounders, then he would been brilliant.

In 1948 against Lindwall, Miller, and Johnston it took him 2 Tests to get used to Australian pitches, but then he scored centuries in the 3rd and 5th Tests and did OK in the 4th Test. An Indian great for sure, and ahead of his time.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

India great for sure and ahead of his time. But time has moved on. I am not convinced that he would even make a current India ATG XI - let alone an Asian team.

 

[bagapath]

turning the matches.

Spent the last ten minutes thinking about this. Still don't get your joke.

 

[bagapath]

turning the matches.

Reposting from the main thread:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/68160-poll-1-playing-selector-wk-subcontinental-xi.html

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...lector-opening-bowlers-subcontinental-xi.html

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...ector-openers-all-time-subcontinental-xi.html

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/68183-poll-4-spinner-subcontinental-xi.html

Six slots are more or less locked already

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Sangakara (wk) --- batting position to be fixed afterwards
Akram
Waqar
Murali

Will let these polls stay on for a couple of days and then start the middle order polls.

I may have a sub-poll if Dravid makes it to the middle order to take a final call on whether Dravid or Sanga should bat at 3. That will decide the number of slots for all-rounders / bowlers. (Dravid can't bat anywhere other than at 3. So if he loses the sub-poll to Sanga he is out of the team).

In the mean time you can read those threads above to understand how and why CW is choosing these players.
There is also the bonus of a very good joke by Migara in one of those threads with a pun on "turning matches". I still don't get it. But I am confident I will laugh once it is explained to me.

 

[OverratedSanity]

(Dravid can't bat anywhere other than at 3. So if he loses the sub-poll to Sanga he is out of the team).

wat that makes no sense.

 

[bagapath]

wat that makes no sense.

We will have this poll only if many of us want sanga to keep AND bat at 3 (coz that is his natural position). So the poll will be for the no 3 slot between sanga and dravid (or whoever it is from the middle order poll most suited to be no.3). If sanga wins this poll, dravid will be one of the contenders for the no 6 slot along with the all rounders and other runners up from middle order. if sanga loses this poll he will automatically become the no. 6. so the all rounders poll won't include batting options.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Miandad could be one of the contenders for 6 as well.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

CaptainGrumpy raises some interesting points.

Why I like Dev at 7 is that my philosophy for ATG teams is to go icing-heavy, the reasoning being that your players are good enough to have plenty of cake so you need to go for X-factor.

With a team of:

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. ????
6. Sangakkara

it seems to me that you really need a hitter in there at 5.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Dravid can bat 5 or 6 if needed.

His 180 in the Kolkata Test came from #6.

 

[Flametree]

CaptainGrumpy raises some interesting points.

Why I like Dev at 7 is that my philosophy for ATG teams is to go icing-heavy, the reasoning being that your players are good enough to have plenty of cake so you need to go for X-factor.

With a team of:

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. ????
6. Sangakkara

it seems to me that you really need a hitter in there at 5.

I just about understand picking Kapil Dev (though I wouldn't, I'd take a spinning allrounder or Kumble)... but I genuinely don't understand why everyone keeps batting him at 7 ahead of Imran...

 

[Flametree]

I know they don't meet any of the criteria, but Mohammed Nissar and Amar Singh should be in the list... but then I chose Merchant in the opener thread so call me a nostalgia-freak...

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

CaptainGrumpy raises some interesting points.

Why I like Dev at 7 is that my philosophy for ATG teams is to go icing-heavy, the reasoning being that your players are good enough to have plenty of cake so you need to go for X-factor.

With a team of:

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. ????
6. Sangakkara

it seems to me that you really need a hitter in there at 5.

Heh, if Dev is the batting all rounder 5th bowler batting at 6 or 7 pending on Sanga's batting position then Afridi has a claim with Shakib, Jayasuriya and Mushtak Mohammad to also challenge for that role. .

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Yeah I would have actually picked Afridi at 6 and Sanga at 5 but I know that would go down like a cup of cold dog vomit.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

In fact, I've decided what my team would be.

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Sangakkara (wk)
6. Afridi (6)
7. Dev (5)
8. Khan (3) (captain)
9. Akram (2)
10. Younis (1)
11. Murali (4)

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

In fact, I've decided what my team would be.

1. Gavaskar
2. Sehwag
3. Dravid
4. Tendulkar
5. Sangakkara (wk)
6. Afridi (6)
7. Dev (5)
8. Khan (3) (captain)
9. Akram (2)
10. Younis (1)
11. Murali (4)

Dev and Afridi? Wow. What do you need all the bowlers for NZVik? Younis Akram Murali and Khan are going to get most teams out on most pitch types. You need a 5th bowling option at best to spell the 3 quicks or a spinner for playing on dusty roads and day 5 to assist Murali. I'd go for something more like:

1 Gavaskar
2 Sehwag
3 Dravid
4 Tendulkar (merely to spare an argument)
5 Younis Khan
6 Miandad or Mushtaq Mohammad at 7 (Sanga at 6) or Sanath Jayasuriya
7 Sangakara +
8 Khan
9 Akram
10 Younis
11 Murali

I could understand the rationale if someone selected Afridi, Shakib, Jayasuriya or Mushtaq Mohammad instead of Miandad, which I think makes more sense than putting Kapil Dev in there, who will never see the new ball with Akram, Imran and Younis in the team. I much prefer the deep batting line up that will permit Sanga and Miandad to post big scores where Afridi and Dev will not. Sanath Jayasuriya and Mushtaq Mohammad really have big claims for the #6 spot here if people really want a 5th bowler for an Asian XI that would theoretically play in Asia often. Shakib as well. Dev, probably not. His batting is weaker and he is a new ball bowler who will not get the new ball ahead of the other seamers. I think the spinning batting allrounders make more sense than a 4th seam bowling allrounder, especially for an Asian XI.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Vijay Hazare should be claiming a spot in there somehow