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Shoaib targets Aussie trio

Gotchya

Well-known member
Eclipse said:

McGrath has the right to be arrogant Shoiab cant back it up.
Really ? might I remind you ? WC 99 ? group match ? the recent test series ? super challenge ? sure he cant back it up... He is one bowler who has constantly troubled australian batsmen. I see nothing wrong in doing what he has done. Hell if I were as intimidatory a bowler as he is why would I not be cocky ?

You remind me of glass houses and stones heh ;)

Mind you, I would be more careful with my word selection when I address a player. I can think of a thousand other ways to express those feelings.
 

aussie_beater

Well-known member
Eclipse said:
This guy is a cocky prick somtimes I hope Gilly, Hayden and Ponting murder him.

What an ego!
Why is Shoaib a prick and McGrath,Warne and others not ?

If McGrath and guys can talk like that, then everybody else has a right to talk like that too.And Shoaib has backed it up on multiple occasions against Aus, although its not exactly a matter of who can back it up and who can't.Its a case of plain trash talking and last I checked, the Aussies didn't buy exclusive rights to that.
 

Rik

Well-known member
Re: Re: Shoaib targets Aussie trio

aussie_beater said:
Why is Shoaib a prick and McGrath,Warne and others not ?

If McGrath and guys can talk like that, then everybody else has a right to talk like that too.And Shoaib has backed it up on multiple occasions against Aus, although its not exactly a matter of who can back it up and who can't.Its a case of plain trash talking and last I checked, the Aussies didn't buy exclusive rights to that.
You just hit the nail with the hammer there mate! :D
 

V Reddy

Well-known member
Eclipse said:


"Lee is not a match-winner. Only when he starts winning matches for his team will he be compared with me," said Akhtar, who has so far grabbed 122 wickets in 75 one-dayers.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Rik said:
Look at what Vaughan has done, he's scored more runs than anyone in the calender year and all he comes up with is "Yeah it's a bit of a surprise". McGrath would have probably come up with "yes and I did because I'm great". It just shows the difference in the way players over here are brought up.
Ever thought that this might be way England fail to win so often?

The phrase "better to be a cheerful loser than a winner" springs to mind.

If anyone has ever used that in Australia I will eat my hat...

Oh, and for my two cents, this thing has huge echoes of the Lee/any-other-bowler-with-an-iffy-action scenario, where all the others are cheats and Lee's action's perfect. Rose Tinted Glasses, methinks.

A_B's got it pretty much dead on.
 

Anil

Well-known member
Of all the attacks in this WC, it is a fired-up Pak attack with Akhtar, Akram, Younis and Saqlain(with support bowlers) that has the most ability to tear apart the Aussie lineup and Akhtar is the lynchpin of the attack. Certainly he can do as he claims, but he still has to translate his words into action. Let's wait and see....

As far as trash-talking of rivals is considered, the Aussies started(and are still continuing) the whole concept and if the other teams have caught on and are taking the "mental disintegration" fight back to the originators, they certainly can't complain.
 

Top_Cat

Well-known member
The phrase "better to be a cheerful loser than a winner" springs to mind.

If anyone has ever used that in Australia I will eat my hat...
Nah, we prefer to win. :D

Seriously, as far as the Aussie Test side, it started with Allan Border. He was the one who said in 1987 in the dressing room (after being reamed by the English!), "I'm sick of being a nice guy and losing! I'd rather be a prick and win!". Next thing you know, Australia won the final Test of the series and from there, the rest is history.

Just like the Aussies then, the English team has the players with the ability to win games. An attitudinal paradigm shift is what's required. :) And I reckon guys like Mark Butcher, Michael Vaughan and Marcus Trescothick are going to be the architects of that revival. Nasser has started it but those are the guys who will take it to the next level I believe.
 

Anil

Well-known member
Top_Cat said:
Nah, we prefer to win. :D

Seriously, as far as the Aussie Test side, it started with Allan Border. He was the one who said in 1987 in the dressing room (after being reamed by the English!), "I'm sick of being a nice guy and losing! I'd rather be a prick and win!". Next thing you know, Australia won the final Test of the series and from there, the rest is history.

Just like the Aussies then, the English team has the players with the ability to win games. An attitudinal paradigm shift is what's required. :) And I reckon guys like Mark Butcher, Michael Vaughan and Marcus Trescothick are going to be the architects of that revival. Nasser has started it but those are the guys who will take it to the next level I believe.
So what's the moral of the story? That you have to be a prick to win, that being nice always means you are on the losing side?

The attitudinal paradigm shift that the English players should undergo is removing the mental & psychological block that make them think that it just isn't possible to beat Australia. If they capitulate like this against every other team, then it's a chronic case and difficult to cure. But, that's not the case.

Cricketing history has shown that you don't have to be a team of trash-talking pricks to dominate the game or even to be a tough and hardnosed team. You need to believe in your abilities and have the will and commitment to win. That's easier said than done, I know but it's not impossible and England can do it. Australia will still probably win more as they are a more talented team, but England will fight better and not go down as tamely as they are doing now and importantly, close out some of these tight matches. This can be said of any team playing international cricket who have the requisite talent. Talent and will to win are what have propelled the Aussies to the forefront of cricket, not trash-talking and sledging rivals. So, in conclusion, being a prick doesn't ensure that you become a champion, have the ability, will, commitment and maybe some luck on the way, does.
 

Top_Cat

Well-known member
So what's the moral of the story? That you have to be a prick to win, that being nice always means you are on the losing side?
Well it's not so much being a 'prick' in terms of abuse (as I never did that and don't strictly agree with it as a tactic) but it's more about not extending any niceties towards your opponent. Play the game hard etc. but also, don't just accept failure and try to be nice about it. Acknowledge the fact your opponent was better on the day but aim to beat them comprehensively the next time. The current teams don't seriously think they can challenge Australia right now and it fuels the arrogance we've seen from the Aussies recently.

Cricketing history has shown that you don't have to be a team of trash-talking pricks to dominate the game or even to be a tough and hardnosed team. You need to believe in your abilities and have the will and commitment to win.
I dispute that, I really do. Not the part about the pricks but the part about being tough. Having the will to win is not just about believing in your own abilities at all. Winning is about not allowing your opposition to play as well as they can as much as it is about playing well yourself.

An example; you're a fast bowler and you're up against a player who is suspect against short-pitched stuff. If you merely believed in yoru abilities, you'd just bowl outside off-stump and try to get him the usual way. The advantage to that is that you might get him that once or you might not.

The other approach to the situation would be to bounce the crap out of him. The advantage is that not only could you get them out then, you might effectively get future wickets for yourself as he's going to be apprehansive trying to play you.

That's the tough approach which successful teams the world over have had to adopt, even if they think something like that isn't sportsman-like. The WI team of the late 70's and 80's did it, the current Aussie team do it and have been doing so for a while and the best teams have all done it.

If you're nice and never try the less fun tactics, well you might take the occasional win off the best teams but most times, you'll be wiped off the park. In my opinion, you have to not just play well yourself but impose your will on the opposition and let them know that not only do you want to win but that you want them to LOSE.

Talent and will to win are what have propelled the Aussies to the forefront of cricket, not trash-talking and sledging rivals.
Well not so much trash-talking but the tough tactics have also done it. The courage to do what's required to win, regardless of how bad you may feel about it, are what separates a good team from a dynasty.

So, in conclusion, being a prick doesn't ensure that you become a champion, have the ability, will, commitment and maybe some luck on the way, does.
I disagree. Being a prick will not win you matches on it's own (of course) but ALL Test teams have will to win, commitment etc. or they wouldn't even be Test sides. So there must be something else which separates the wheat from the chaff and that must be attitude.
 
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Eclipse

Well-known member
Gotchya said:
Really ? might I remind you ? WC 99 ? group match ? the recent test series ? super challenge ? sure he cant back it up... He is one bowler who has constantly troubled australian batsmen. I see nothing wrong in doing what he has done. Hell if I were as intimidatory a bowler as he is why would I not be cocky ?

You remind me of glass houses and stones heh ;)

Mind you, I would be more careful with my word selection when I address a player. I can think of a thousand other ways to express those feelings.
Ok I admit my mistake he is no worse than McGrath etc..

However Shoaib has not consistently troubled the Australian batsman infact apart form about 3- 4 iscolated incedents the Australian top order Ponting in particular have hammerd him and thats a fact.
 

Gotchya

Well-known member
Eclipse said:
Ok I admit my mistake he is no worse than McGrath etc..


Thankyou.

However Shoaib has not consistently troubled the Australian batsman infact apart form about 3- 4 iscolated incedents the Australian top order Ponting in particular have hammerd him and thats a fact.
Isolated they were not. Ponting has an aggressive outlook yes, but him dominating Shoaib ? I am struggling here to remember. I am sure many will agree that Shoaib has had the louder laugh uptill now. He has been expensive at times but largely he's bowled with fire against Australia.
 

Gotchya

Well-known member
marc71178 said:
His record against Aus isn't the greatest...
Good enough to trash talk though :saint: then again who has ?

Off the current crop of bowlers how many would you pick against the Aussies ?
 

Anil

Well-known member
Top_Cat said:
Well it's not so much being a 'prick' in terms of abuse (as I never did that and don't strictly agree with it as a tactic) but it's more about not extending any niceties towards your opponent. Play the game hard etc. but also, don't just accept failure and try to be nice about it. Acknowledge the fact your opponent was better on the day but aim to beat them comprehensively the next time. The current teams don't seriously think they can challenge Australia right now and it fuels the arrogance we've seen from the Aussies recently.



I dispute that, I really do. Not the part about the pricks but the part about being tough. Having the will to win is not just about believing in your own abilities at all. Winning is about not allowing your opposition to play as well as they can as much as it is about playing well yourself.

An example; you're a fast bowler and you're up against a player who is suspect against short-pitched stuff. If you merely believed in yoru abilities, you'd just bowl outside off-stump and try to get him the usual way. The advantage to that is that you might get him that once or you might not.

The other approach to the situation would be to bounce the crap out of him. The advantage is that not only could you get them out then, you might effectively get future wickets for yourself as he's going to be apprehansive trying to play you.

That's the tough approach which successful teams the world over have had to adopt, even if they think something like that isn't sportsman-like. The WI team of the late 70's and 80's did it, the current Aussie team do it and have been doing so for a while and the best teams have all done it.

If you're nice and never try the less fun tactics, well you might take the occasional win off the best teams but most times, you'll be wiped off the park. In my opinion, you have to not just play well yourself but impose your will on the opposition and let them know that not only do you want to win but that you want them to LOSE.



Well not so much trash-talking but the tough tactics have also done it. The courage to do what's required to win, regardless of how bad you may feel about it, are what separates a good team from a dynasty.



I disagree. Being a prick will not win you matches on it's own (of course) but ALL Test teams have will to win, commitment etc. or they wouldn't even be Test sides. So there must be something else which separates the wheat from the chaff and that must be attitude.
T_C, I think you misunderstood me a little here. Let me clarify. Please note the highlighted part in my quote below.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cricketing history has shown that you don't have to be a team of trash-talking pricks to dominate the game or even to be a tough and hardnosed team. You need to believe in your abilities and have the will and commitment to win.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now read that together as a sentence. You will see that there is no disagreement between us on this point. I know that cricket is a high pressure game played for big money and national pride, therefore very high stakes. I never underestimated the value of being tough. I just wanted to say that to be tough doesn't equal to be a prick.

Also, I agree that the Aussie arrogance is fuelled in part by the "you can trample all over me" attitude of the other teams and, that sort of contradicts what you say at the end, doesn't it? If you have the will and commitment to win, even if you don't have the required talent, atleast the effort will be there as well as an uncompromising and positive attitude, won't it?(eg: Fleming's NZ in their last series in Australia) It is a natural progression and it is the paucity of the former that leads to a lack of the latter. So, I say that as far as will to win and commitment goes, the Aussies have a larger dosage than the other teams and that is what directly leads to their superior attitude.
 
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Top_Cat

Well-known member
It is a natural progression and it is the paucity of the former that leads to a lack of the latter. So, I say that as far as will to win and commitment goes, the Aussies have a larger dosage than the other teams and that is what directly leads to their superior attitude.
This is true but I still say the aggressive attitude is actually more deliberate than that in that the opposite applies too; playing with an aggressive attitude (even when you're down) leads to good performances, as well as good performances leading to an aggressive attitude.

Ponting has an aggressive outlook yes, but him dominating Shoaib ? I am struggling here to remember. I am sure many will agree that Shoaib has had the louder laugh uptill now. He has been expensive at times but largely he's bowled with fire against Australia.
Eh? The fact that Ricky Ponting averages 73 against Pakistan with three BIG hundreds against them (two of them with Shoiab in the team along with an average of 82 with Shoiab in the team) hardly suggests that Shoaib has been able to get Ponting out consistently at all, let alone dominate him.

And in the matches they've come up against each other in one-dayers, Ponting has averaged 47.53 with one hundred and 6 50's in 18 matches.

So please, do you want to tell us just HOW it can be said that Shoaib has laughed the loudest against Ricky Ponting?

Disregarding the stats, I've only seen two occasions where that can be said; the Test match in Columbo and the one-dayer in Brisbane in the off-season series. Those two times, he made Ponting look like an amateur. But in Ponting's 197 in Perth, 141 in Columbo and most occasions in between, he's made Akhtar look like a club bowler.
 

Eclipse

Well-known member
Exactly I know my stuff and it's fair to say that overall Ponting has had by far the better of Shoaib.

Another time that springs to mind was one of the Natwset games Australia VS Pakistan Ponting absolutly merdured Him on numerus occasions. I remember he tryed to bounce Ricky and was treated with total disraspect getting hammerd all over the place.
 

yohanna

Banned
Akhter's statements often irritates me (7 out of 10 times) yet i still don't know as to why all this fuss is being made on his latest statement when all he had said was that he would target the best Ausssie batters, to me that was a mind game, something about which Aussies are most familiar with!

As for Akhter not consistently troubling Aussie batters, tell me which bowler has done that??? One simply cannot deny the fact that Akhter had performed extremely well against Australia in both format of cricket during the past one year, so he certainly has the capability to trouble them again!
 

yohanna

Banned
age_master said:
yeah well the way brett lee is bowling atm, i would say hes faster, fitter and far more dangerous than acktar, and he can bat way better as well
Lee will most probably perform better than Akhter in the Aus-Pak match.That will be because Lee will have the advantage of bowling to a MUCH MUCH weaker batting lineup than the one to which Akhter would be bowling to.
 
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