The Official Pakistan Politics thread

[smalishah84]

Imran’s a hypocrite:

This supposed champion of democracy and people’s power actually has a terrible record in supporting democracy itself. He had a very friendly relationship with arguably the worst dictator in Pakistan’s history, Zia Ul Haq. But that was prior to his entry into politics and one can argue he was merely indulging the head of state. However, nothing can justify this democratic champion’s support of General Musharraf in 1999. That’s right folks; Imran supported the military coup that overthrew Nawaz Sharif. Now there is no doubt that Sharif was corrupt and incompetent, and was pushing Pakistan to tilt even more towards a religious hard line. Be that as it may, he was the democratically elected Prime Minister of the country. If Imran didn’t like his policies (and 90% of the country didn’t), he should’ve led a campaign to defeat him at the polls. Instead, he supported the military in toppling democracy. If a politician in any other country where democracy is practiced had done the same thing as Imran, his legitimacy to govern would forever be tarnished. In Pakistan, Imran is treated like the savior of democracy, and today every other sentence from Imran’s mouth is about the will of the people and practicing democratic principles! Also, after consistently accusing Altaf Hussain of murder and even filing a case against him, he has since softened his stance. Why even consider aligning yourself with “murderers” Mr. Khan? Inconsistent much?

Imran also loves to attack the character of his political rivals. He advocates personal responsibility and doing the right thing. Of course what Imran forgets to mention is none of that actually applies to him. The Sita White affair is proof of that. Imran conceived an illegitimate child with Sita White, Tyrian, and then denied being the father. He lost a paternity suit in 1997. To me, it is absolutely disgusting that he would run away from his responsibility like that. We all make mistakes and I don’t fault Imran for conceiving a child when he didn’t intend to. I do, however, fault him for abandoning said child and refusing to own up to his mistake. What moral standing does Imran have to criticize Zardari, Nawaz, or any other politician’s characters when he himself is no paradigm of virtue? Oh by the way, if anyone has the gall to attack him on the Sita White issue, Imran is not above responding with a racist joke (listen from 2:20 onwards). For those that don’t understand Urdu, Imran responds to a dark-skinned politician’s claim that Tyrian looks like him (Imran) by saying that if he went to Africa, he’s sure to find lots of children that look like the (dark-skinned) politician. Class personified!

Imran’s soft on extremism:

Firstly, I would say that a lot of what you say above is true. However I am not sure you watched the program in which Imran was accused by Senator Ghauri of being the child of the father. It was the most stupid kind of accusation by holding up a picture and saying "look, the child even looks like you".

Secondly, nobody ever said Imran was an angel. Even he himself has said that so many times. However he is definitely much much better than the Zardaris, Sharifs, and the Altafs.

 

[smalishah84]

Imran’s a hypocrite:

Imran’s soft on extremism:

Imran has consistently been soft on extremist parties in Pakistan, as well as the Taliban. IMO, he only offers lip service about Taliban being evil terrorists. All I ask is that Imran only protest half as much against the act of terrorism that the Taliban commit as he does against the United States. Hey Imran, how about staging a dharna against the Taliban? Just once? Instead, he is willing to pick a gun and join them against the US! Let that sink in for a second. He is willing to join the same guys who routinely blow up innocent children, bomb schools and hospitals, and behead anyone who doesn’t wear a beard. He surrounds himself with extremists like Ejaz Chaudhry and Hamid Gul. He also formed an alliance in the past with one of the most hard-line extremist parties in Pakistan, the Jamat e Islami (until things turned sour later politically and they parted ways). Imran’s solution to ending terrorism is for America to withdraw from the subcontinent and to have “peace talks” with the Taliban. He ignores the fact that the Taliban took advantage of previous peace deals offered to them by Pakistan to regroup and plan even more attacks. And of course the Taliban will leave Pakistan alone if Pakistan leaves them alone. That’s what they want! To be left alone to commit atrocities without anyone stopping them. What Imran needs to understand is that the Taliban are butchers and monsters. We shouldn’t be making peace deals with them, we should be eradicating them.

It is interesting that you find US occupation in Asia something praiseworthy. Interestingly while you find some things about Imran hypocritical and try to portray yourself as a champion of democracy and freedom and "all that is good in this world", I am quite surprised of your constant support of Imperialism. And you really believe that the occupation of Iraq is about freedom too, right?

Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

Bill o Reilly finally comes clean that it is about oil.

Interestingly while the Taliban are accused of killing innocent people what about the 500,000 Iraqi children who died as a consequence of sanctions?

"I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it". (US Secretary of State Madeline Albright on the death of half a million Iraqi children).

While the attrocities of the Taliban are plain to see in your eyes yet you continue to ignore the drone attacks that keep killing so many civilians. Of course lies in Asia don't matter they are just collateral damage right?

 

[Fusion]

Firstly, I would say that a lot of what you say above is true. However I am not sure you watched the program in which Imran was accused by Senator Ghauri of being the child of the father. It was the most stupid kind of accusation by holding up a picture and saying "look, the child even looks like you".

Secondly, nobody ever said Imran was an angel. Even he himself has said that so many times. However he is definitely much much better than the Zardaris, Sharifs, and the Altafs.

Thanks Smaili for at least acknowledging the merits of my argument. I expected straight denial, so this indeed is a surprise. As for what Ghauri said to Imran, sure it was childish and petty (even if based on truth), but how does that justify Imran responding with that racist joke? Keep in mind that Imran is potentially a future Prime Minister of Pakistan. Is this acceptable for a leader? Also, I don't expect any politician to be an angel, but I will call them out on their hypocrisies when they dwell on other's character flaws.

It is interesting that you find US occupation in Asia something praiseworthy. Interestingly while you find some things about Imran hypocritical and try to portray yourself as a champion of democracy and freedom and "all that is good in this world", I am quite surprised of your constant support of Imperialism. And you really believe that the occupation of Iraq is about freedom too, right?

Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

Bill o Reilly finally comes clean that it is about oil.

Interestingly while the Taliban are accused of killing innocent people what about the 500,000 Iraqi children who died as a consequence of sanctions?

"I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it". (US Secretary of State Madeline Albright on the death of half a million Iraqi children).

While the attrocities of the Taliban are plain to see in your eyes yet you continue to ignore the drone attacks that keep killing so many civilians. Of course lies in Asia don't matter they are just collateral damage right?

Smali, I have no idea what you are trying to prove with your post above. What does Bill O Reilly getting "owned" by David Letterman has anything to do with Imran (by the way, let me point out that's one American challenging another)? First off, you do realize that I, along with the vast majority of Americans, opposed the war in Iraq right? I fail to see what that has to do with Imran and his dangerous and misguided views on Taliban and terrorism in general. Is your point that it's ok for the Taliban to kill children because the US invasion of Iraq killed children as well? And you are confusing me with Imran with the bit about promoting "all that is good in the world". That's Mr. Khan's domain, not mine. There is no justification for the evil, heinous acts of the Taliban. Period.

 

[smalishah84]

Thanks Smaili for at least acknowledging the merits of my argument. I expected straight denial, so this indeed is a surprise. As for what Ghauri said to Imran, sure it was childish and petty (even if based on truth), but how does that justify Imran responding with that racist joke? Keep in mind that Imran is potentially a future Prime Minister of Pakistan. Is this acceptable for a leader? Also, I don't expect any politician to be an angel, but I will call them out on their hypocrisies when they dwell on other's character flaws.

I am always happy to prove you wrong Fusion

So what if Imran is a future potential PM of Pakistan? Imran's joke was only as racist as was Babar Ghauri's. For once Imran gave a reply in kind and people didn't like it. Might appreciate him more for not being our usual type of politician

Smali, I have no idea what you are trying to prove with your post above. What does Bill O Reilly getting "owned" by David Letterman has anything to do with Imran (by the way, let me point out that's one American challenging another)? First off, you do realize that I, along with the vast majority of Americans, opposed the war in Iraq right? I fail to see what that has to do with Imran and his dangerous and misguided views on Taliban and terrorism in general. Is your point that it's ok for the Taliban to kill children because the US invasion of Iraq killed children as well? And you are confusing me with Imran with the bit about promoting "all that is good in the world". That's Mr. Khan's domain, not mine. There is no justification for the evil, heinous acts of the Taliban. Period.

The point of me posting that Bill O' Reilly clip was that even the most hard line of US policy supporters (when absolutely pressed like in the show above) admit that it is about Oil and not about promoting freedom and democracy in the world.

Secondly I see that the US jumping in to Afghanistan is not in order to right any wrongs. If anything the US govt has committed far more wrongs than possibly any other regime in the 20th century. I want to know if you really believe that the invasion of Afghanistan is about freedom and democracy (they also claimed that about Iraq)? If it is not then why do you support it? Your fundamental issue with Imran's foreign policy seems to be on the Taliban issue while for me the issue has its roots in the US invasion of the country. So lets clear that out first.

 

[Fusion]

I am always happy to prove you wrong Fusion

So what if Imran is a future potential PM of Pakistan? Imran's joke was only as racist as was Babar Ghauri's. For once Imran gave a reply in kind and people didn't like it. Might appreciate him more for not being our usual type of politician

How is Ghauri holding a picture of Imran's child racist? It may be a petty and childish thing to do, but it's not racist. Imran's "joke" on the other hand, was certainly racist. I don't see anything to appreciate there.

The point of me posting that Bill O' Reilly clip was that even the most hard line of US policy supporters (when absolutely pressed like in the show above) admit that it is about Oil and not about promoting freedom and democracy in the world.

There has always been an intense divide in the United States about the Iraq war. Initially, roughly half the country supported it and half opposed it. As time passed, the overwhelming majority strongly opposed it. But we're discussing Imran here, and specifically Pakistan and Afghanistan. I still don't see the relevance of the Iraq war in this discussion.

Secondly I see that the US jumping in to Afghanistan is not in order to right any wrongs. If anything the US govt has committed far more wrongs than possibly any other regime in the 20th century.

See this is the type of rubbish hyperbole that I associate with Imran and his supporters and why I accuse you specifically of being anti-American. Are you seriously suggesting that the US govt has committed more wrongs in the 20th Century than any other regime? So the US is worse than Nazi Germany, which caused 50 to 70 million fatalities due to WW2? The US is worse than Joseph Stalin's USSR, with its gulags and executions that killed anywhere from 4 to 60 million people? Worse than the Kymer Rouge that killed 3 million? Give me a break Smaili.

I want to know if you really believe that the invasion of Afghanistan is about freedom and democracy (they also claimed that about Iraq)? If it is not then why do you support it? Your fundamental issue with Imran's foreign policy seems to be on the Taliban issue while for me the issue has its roots in the US invasion of the country. So lets clear that out first.

Afghanistan was all about the removal of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Of course the US had a perfect right to invade. They were attacked on 9/11 by an organization whose leadership was hiding in Afghanistan. Let's switch roles here. God forbid, if tomorrow there is an attack on Lahore in which 3000 people die and we know for a fact that the attack was planned and originated from Afghanistan, what would you think Pakistan's reaction would be? What would your reaction be? Would you not want action taken? I know I would. The US' goal is not to conquer and rule Afghanistan, but to remove a real threat to the security of its people. They have nearly accomplished that task and will withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by 2014.

I find it interesting you keep diverting the subject away from Imran to the United States. Why not focus on Imran and his views on the Taliban? Why should we talk peace with these monsters? I find it astonishing that Imran doesn't realize that the Taliban are not interested in peace and living in peace and harmony. They will continue to be a menace to the people and government of Pakistan, with or without the presence of the United States. If Imran continues to act on his naive believes, then I fear for the very existence of Pakistan as we know it today.

 

[smalishah84]

Oooohhhh I have a lot to say but since I am at work I'll try to elaborate later. However before I go I must say we always keep returning to the united states because that is what really is the bone of contention between you not liking Imran's policies. I find it strange that while you can see the hypocrisy in Imran you seem to shy away from detecting that in US policies.

Interesting that the US does not invade other countries whose ideology the talilban were/are following. They should be called monsters of the same ilk as the taliban. Oh wait, as long as the oil is coming in they are not quite monsters are they?

And yes, the parallel with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is quite plain to see. Didn't they go in to Iraq looking for Al-Qaeda and WMD as well? Seems like Al-Qaeda is the perfect alibi for invasion. So where is Al-Qaeda is Iraq? Al-Qaeda is used to have air strikes in Yemen.

Returning to Imran's stance on the Taliban he never said that the military option is completely closed. He only said there is a political solution to this and the military option is always to be used as a last resort. I don't quite understand what is so offensive about having talks with them? What was achieved in the last 10 years of military occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan? Has the world become a more peaceful place to live? If anything peace should be given a chance.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Fusion is winning this by so much, it's not funny. Pakistan keeps crowing about how they deserve to be compensated monetarily for 'supporting' the US in the war against terror. Why then is it supposed to be hypocritical for the US to expect some gains for doing the actual fighting?

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Fusion you have gotten confused about the Taliban just like everyone else. Imran supports Afghan Taliban who are fighting for their country. Before US invasion of Afghanistan these people never took interests in Pakistan and have no intention to. They only want their country. Imran is against the TTP however, who are terrorists because they are blowing up Masjids, markets, etc.

Yes Imran has made mistakes and he probably is a hypocrite, but who isn't, we are all hypocrites. the important thing is how he behaves from now on. In the last few years his behaviour has been professional.

Also please let me know who you want to be the prime minister of Pakistan (probably someone who grovels to the US).

As for GI Joe, this was never Pakistan's war. The US is using our bases, they have caused billions in damage to our roads for the transportation of their supply's using heavy trucks. And we allow them to supply their soldiers in Afghanistan. The compensation that they are giving us whilst meagre, is paying for all these things. So why should they expect us to do more, if they don't want to pay for it. Their war has also caused a negative effect to our economy and Pakistan has lost thousands of civilian and military lives.

Staying in Afghanistan is also an ideal solution for the US. They can keep an eye on Russia, China, India and Pak.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

How has Imran aligned himself with murderers. Altaf by the way is one of the biggest murderers in Pakistan and should be hanged for his crimes, but the UK government is protecting the bastard.

Regarding Musharaf, yes he supported him earlier, but that was in his early days, when people thought that he would make a difference. Nawaz deserved to be removed for being the corrupt arsehole that he is. But when Musharaf offered offered Imran the prime minister post, Imran refused.

That was a sarcastic joke Imran made regarding the racist comments you mentioned. And not admitting to being father of the girl, well yes that was a mistake which he should not have done, but he has accepted her now.

 

[Xuhaib]

Fusion,

i agree with lot of your points and very much believe Imran is not a messiah that many of us would love to believe he has his faults and has made many u-turns throughout his political career and tbh more then his bluntness and straight forwardness this is the thing that has hindered his political career as people never took any of his statements seriously as they knew he would be singing a different tune in the next few days.

However I am focusing on what he is offering now. Independent judicary, break up of political mafia,proper local governence system permanent solution of the persistent energy problem and less dependence on the US aid. These are the things which are the priority for Pakistan if Imran has a viable solution for all these issues then I am all for giving him a chance.

Yes his going soft approach on extremest elements is controversial but the reality is these people form an integral part in the Pakistani society and just crushing them and eliminating them will never be a long term solution, I have a feeling Imran at that time was desperate to garner support from somewhere to stay relevent and as more and more mainstream Pakistan has started getting behind him he has started distancing himself from these people. i am all for getting rid of US from our area, belonging to Pakistan's business community I have seen first hand how the business enviornment been effected since US started the Afghan war and sooner the US leave the better it is for our economy.

As for the Babar Ghauri joke first time I saw it lol.. that was pathetic by imran.

 

[Fusion]

Fusion you have gotten confused about the Taliban just like everyone else. Imran supports Afghan Taliban who are fighting for their country. Before US invasion of Afghanistan these people never took interests in Pakistan and have no intention to. They only want their country. Imran is against the TTP however, who are terrorists because they are blowing up Masjids, markets, etc.

I’m not confused about the Taliban at all. I know who they are: evil, heartless barbarians who barely qualify to be labeled as human beings. There is no differentiating between the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban. They both have the same extreme ideology and purpose. So according to you, Saint Imran supports the Afghan Taliban. The same Afghan Taliban that applied the most twisted version of Islam on its people? The same Afghan Taliban that gave shelter to OBL and the rest of Al Qaeda leadership? Oh ok then, that makes me want to support Imran for sure! By the way, the Afghan Taliban are also blowing up Masjids, Markets, innocent children, just like the TTP. Is Imran seriously going to ignore their atrocities and label them as good old freedom fighters fighting the infidels?

Yes Imran has made mistakes and he probably is a hypocrite, but who isn't, we are all hypocrites. the important thing is how he behaves from now on. In the last few years his behaviour has been professional.

Also please let me know who you want to be the prime minister of Pakistan (probably someone who grovels to the US).

Yes we are all hypocrites. However, we’re not all running for Prime Minister on a platform of personal responsibility, people’s power, and restoration of true democracy. Imran is and hence deserves to be called on his hypocrisies.

As for who I want for Prime Minister – how about someone that doesn’t grovel at the feet of the Taliban?

How has Imran aligned himself with murderers. Altaf by the way is one of the biggest murderers in Pakistan and should be hanged for his crimes, but the UK government is protecting the bastard.

Then why has Imran softened his stance on Altaf and the MQM? Why is he willing to work with them in the future? This is still the same Altaf that according to Imran had many of the PTI workers killed during the May 12th Karachi riots. Could it be a case of political expediency?

I also provided other examples of extremists that Imran associates himself with.

Regarding Musharaf, yes he supported him earlier, but that was in his early days, when people thought that he would make a difference. Nawaz deserved to be removed for being the corrupt arsehole that he is. But when Musharaf offered offered Imran the prime minister post, Imran refused.

Agent, no matter how incompetent or corrupt Nawaz was (and I consider him the worst PM in the history of Pakistan), he was still democratically elected. How can a person championing democracy support a military takeover? What right will he have to oppose/deter future military coups? This was another case of political expediancy for Imran.

That was a sarcastic joke Imran made regarding the racist comments you mentioned. And not admitting to being father of the girl, well yes that was a mistake which he should not have done, but he has accepted her now.

Oh so that's how it works? If you're being sarcastic, you can make all the racist jokes in the world. That's good to know.

And the main point about his illegimate daughter is about personal responsibility. This man who advocates accountablity from others was not willing to be accountable for his own actions. By the way, he still hasn’t acknowledged her officially as his daughter. He just quitely accepted her in his life. Imran’s actions in this whole case have been simply shameful.

 

[Xuhaib]

As for your point about him supporting Musharraf's dictatorship imo we should cut Imran some slack for his political follies. he's not a natural politician he was not born in a political house neither was he a lawyer like Jinnah or freedom fighter like Mandela these are the people who naturally progress in to politics here we had a sports icon who after retirement decided to start a new profession completely from scratch naturally he will make mistakes.

The important thing for me is his intentions he is not there for glory he could have easily joined one of the big 2 (PML-N, PP) and the premiership would come to him sooner or later his intentions our sincere he is constantly trying to improve and overcome his past mistakes these things are enough for me to get behind him.

 

[Xuhaib]

That Babar Ghauri joke yes its tasteless especially for someone who might be a head of state one day but making a joke about somebody's skin color is really not that big an issue in Pakistan as it is in west. We don't share the same history with the black people like the white people do,its similar to the use of the **** word which is a slur in UK but considered short form of Pakistani else where

 

[Agent Nationaux]

You have to realise that the Mullah Umar's Taliban is different to TTP. TTP was conceived after US's Invasion of Afghanistan and that they are only attacking Pakistan. Mullah Umar himself has rejected the TTP. His Taliban is the very group that the US supported before 9/11. The US had no problems with them taking over Afghanistan. They only have a problem now because they are fighting for their homeland. The Afghan Taliban are harsh in their beliefs but that is no reason to invade. Imran is concerned with his country only for the time being and therefore he is only looking towards the TTP. Mullah Umar offered Bin Ladin to the US but they refused, they wanted Afghanistan and he never helped Bin Ladin or Al Qaida. The Afghan taliban use guns, IDE's and conventional weapons when fighting. They don't use suicide bombs or children like the TTP. And when have they blown up markets and Masjids.

 

[Fusion]

Xuhaib and Agent – I actually respect the ideals you are looking for in Imran. I just think you have built up a hero that doesn’t actually measure up to your ideals. I think Imran is deeply flawed. I could live with that except I think those flaws have the potential to destroy Pakistan. Xuhaib- you say that perhaps he Imran was soft on terrorists/extremists because he was politically naïve or needed to stay relevant. If he unequivocally starts to denounce those extremists, in as loud a voice as he denounces the US, then perhaps I’ll start to change my mind on him. Until he does though, I’ll continue to think he’s a danger to the future of Pakistan.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Is it crap that Imran supported the removal of Nawaz because of him being a corrupt bastard? Yes it is, but he has emerged from that, and we should judge him on his actions from now and not what he did in the past in his political infancy. Name me one leader who was perfect or who did not make mistakes in his past.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Why do you care about the future of Pakistan anyway?

 

[Xuhaib]

he's already denouncing those elements but he's doing it subtly which is good as he can't afford to take these elements head on at this point.

No presence of JI in his jalsa musical performances by Strings & Roy he specially talked about the rights of the minorities all these things are a positive sign imo.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

I don't treat Imran as a prophet, I am just tired of the crap that Pakistanis has had to deal with over the last 60 years and would like someone who is different and honest. Pakistan has no other hope other than Imran. If we continue on this path, we will be destroyed anyway.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

He has denounced TTP so many times, why are you still on about that.