The marginalisation of men

[16 tins of Spam]

In recent years, we in the western world have been forced to acknowledge our sometimes shameful history that has included the oppression of racial minorities, women, homosexuals, certain religions, and so on. Now, in the age of political correctness it seems that guilt is being brought to bear by a seemingly endless parade of special interest groups.

Perhaps one way of interpreting all this is that at some point pretty much every section of society is going to be considered untouchable in terms of criticism, being the object of humour, or practically anything that might be construed as offensive. Perhaps a further extension of this is that one section of society might end up having to carry that burden of guilt and reparation for all of us. And to be honest guys... I think it's gonna be us.

Lately I've noticed a certain amount of weight tipping the scales away from the male hegemony that's ruled the world for the last few millennia, beyond the point of balance, and into a free-for-all of condemnation, petty name calling and downright slander. I'm not saying that this has reached significant proportions, but I can feel attitudes slipping that way.

Guys, any thoughts? Has anyone felt like they're being blamed for what's wrong with everyone else's lives? Anyone felt marginalised? Been made to feel guilty for being male and having money and a job? Ladies? Your perspective is always appreciated

 

[pasag]

The only place I see it as a problem is the Family Courts where men lose out on their children somewhat automatically. Although I think they have fixed it up here, it is still a problem in NZ.

Other than that, who cares?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

This is a difficult issue, because one doesn't want to fall into the trap of playing the victim without justification (and I can already see this thread heading that way). There is however some validity to what you say.

To take feminism as an example, I think feminists still have many things to accomplish, and on most issues of history and even some current ones I agree with feminists almost entirely, but there is a certain trend within such activist groups to cling desperately to historical evidence of oppression as if to admit any gains is to bring into question their entire validity as a political force. This trend can lead to people blindly accepting complete falsehoods as factual information because it fits pre-concieved notions and so on. And also, as you suggest, to outright hostility against people that, frankly, aren't deserving of it.

The guilt culture isn't something that worries me that much personally, but I do think that it's important when people are striving to point out past wrongs and their significance they don't fall into the habit of blaming individual members of other groups (be it men, white people, other religions or whatever) for things that they aren't individually responsible for, or for things which happened in the distant past.

 

[Dasa]

^Hmm some good points there.
I don't think we've yet reached the point of "tipping the scales away from the male hegemony that's ruled the world for the last few millennia, beyond the point of balance, and into a free-for-all of condemnation, petty name calling and downright slander." - in fact, I don't think we're even close.
With regards to this "marginalisation of men", I think there is still a significant amount to do until women can truly be considered as having equality. In officialdom and the like, it may be that discrimination has stopped (in theory), but what still remains is the negative attitudes towards women among many (I'd even go as far to suggest a majority) of men.
It does not necessarily mean joking about women or anything like that, but just how they're considered. Women are still considered 'weaker', 'fragile' etc by many, and simply aren't treated as equals.
I'd say there's a long long way to go until men have to be worried about 'reverse discrimination'.

 

[16 tins of Spam]

I don't think we've yet reached the point of "tipping the scales away from the male hegemony that's ruled the world for the last few millennia, beyond the point of balance, and into a free-for-all of condemnation, petty name calling and downright slander." - in fact, I don't think we're even close.

You're right - that's why I was sure to point out that I don't think we are actually marginalised, more that I can see it starting to happen.

In officialdom and the like, it may be that discrimination has stopped (in theory), but what still remains is the negative attitudes towards women among many (I'd even go as far to suggest a majority) of men.

I don't really think that anywhere near the majority of men are as unenlightened as you suggest. At least not in this part of the world. I'm also not a believer in the "reverse" theory. Discrmination is discrimination, regardless of the target.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Women can openly sledge men, in front of men.

Men can only sledge women in front of other men.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Women can openly sledge men, in front of men.

Men can only sledge women in front of other men.

That kind of thing has always really annoyed me. Likewise the idea (probably an idea concocted by a woman) that all men are the same, but all women have their own individual wants and needs.

 

[Slats4ever]

some good points. i tend to agree with u on most parts.

An example I can think of is a section of the Australian population pressuring John Howard into saying "sorry" for past mistreatments of the Aboriginal people. Why is it his responsibility. He has done no wrong for what other people in the past has done, and by saying sorry he would be admitting guilt. Totally uncool

 

[pasag]

Not really, its the government of Australia that did those misdeeds and that hasn't changed at all. Granted it is all new personell, but it is still the same institution.

And even if they don't technically have to, it is still the right and moral thing to do.

 

[Slats4ever]

not really, the government is a term that describes the personel, so if there's new personel it's a totally different government!!!

morally is someone says sorry they are admitting guilt. so morally it makes no sense

 

[Buddhmaster]

some good points. i tend to agree with u on most parts.

An example I can think of is a section of the Australian population pressuring John Howard into saying "sorry" for past mistreatments of the Aboriginal people. Why is it his responsibility. He has done no wrong for what other people in the past has done, and by saying sorry he would be admitting guilt. Totally uncool

I think it's more they want him to say sorry on behalf of the former government, seeing as he is our leader.

 

[Top_Cat]

No, I don't think there's any danger of patriarchial attitudes going anywhere yet. They way I look at it is this; I work with a lot of very strong women who love to pay men out but I could say that I experience genuine discomfort at what they say maybe twice a year. Women, especially in Police, get crap for being women daily or at least weekly. Institutionalised sexism/racism has declined for years but the secondary types i.e. expression of private attitudes, etc. are, if anything, on the increase. Have seen a lot of work in relation to this and the resuls are usually pretty consistent.

morally is someone says sorry they are admitting guilt. so morally it makes no sense

Not true at all. People say sorry for many, many reasons other than admitting guilt. People say sorry to the bereaved at funerals; does this mean they killed the dead person?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Women can openly sledge men, in front of men.

Men can only sledge women in front of other men.

What do you mean by "can"? I make fun of women in front of female friends or family all the time, and it's not really a major issue. In a professional environment, I'd imagine both would be inappropriate, though it's certainly more of a serious issue for men.

I know what you mean, but I don't think it's really that simple at all.

 

[16 tins of Spam]

I make fun of women in front of female friends or family all the time, and it's not really a major issue.

There's the thing - a bit of harmless banter never goes amiss, but it's when the derogatory comments are backed up by a genuine belief in the truth of those comments.

 

[GotSpin]

Legally, the law has always been biased towards men, and even in parts, still is.

 

[C_C]

The feminist types really annoy me- they are the ones who go around yelling at everyone for 'equal rights and equal treatment' and then try to sweet-talk ahead of you in the bank line.
Really ticks me off sometimes.

 

[GotSpin]

Just like they think i should give up my seat to them...

 

[16 tins of Spam]

Just like they think i should give up my seat to them...

I've never seen a woman do that. Actually today on the bus there was an empty seat and two women declined to take it, so this random dude comes along jumps in instead. Weird.

 

[GotSpin]

I've never seen a woman do that. Actually today on the bus there was an empty seat and two women declined to take it, so this random dude comes along jumps in instead. Weird.

Speak for yourself.

Some woman once told me that i shouldnt be sitting down.

 

[16 tins of Spam]

The feminist types really annoy me- they are the ones who go around yelling at everyone for 'equal rights and equal treatment' and then try to sweet-talk ahead of you in the bank line.:

Feminists don't annoy me. They've had a genuine beef for a long time but I think that now they've won the battle and we should concentrate on not being dicks to each other.

The main problems that women have with discrimination now is on an individual level, and you can't legislate against that.