***Official India in New Zealand***

[Evermind]

I am sorry, I dont agree with that last bit. Its NOT the difference between a champion side and a 'merely good one". I think you could do without that condescending note in that 'merely' when talking of this Indian side. They have held their own in all forms of the game and against all comers. They have earned their position in world cricket and they are surely knocking at that number 1 spot. Whether they get it or not we don't know and I am not enamoured by predictions unless they are so very obvious.

But they ARE a bloody good side and Dhoni IS a bloody good captain. The fact that you cant criticise him today is an unfortunate aside of the sporting culture maybe more in India and the sub-continent but really all over the world.

Well yeah, they're a good side, but not a champion side. The "merely" was to make a distinction between the good and champion side, and not to patronise India. I already think Dhoni is the best captain India have had in the recent years - he's not as conservative and timid as Dravid, and not as puerile and annoying as Ganguly. He also says some hilarious things in press interviews. But to me, a team unable to "go in for the kill against the the weaker teams" is not a champion side.

The thing I find ridiculous is the sense of complacency Indian fans have. "Well we won 1-0, what's the difference? It's all the same, 1-0, 3-0." It's "for the statistician" as someone said (Jono?). I sincerely hope he was joking.

You couldn't criticise Tendulkar ten years ago. Why criticise, you couldn't even say he couldn't sing I suppose. The same was true for Gavaskar at one time. Its true for Warne, McGrath, Ponting till a few years ago, of Lara , Murali and so on.

The fact that fans dont want to hear a word against their beloved stars is mostly because it hurts their sentiments. Its almost like blasphemy. You cant say a word about prophets and religions and get away with it can you even if what you say is not really offensive. Thats how it is. Thats how emotional people get with their identification with their heroes.

Then there is another thing. Anyone disagreeing with them is wrong because he challenges their beliefs. You are not just saying Dhoni is wrong, they hear it as "You dont know a thing about captaincy and cricket". This is not what you may mean but thats how it sounds. That is why instead of answering with, "yes that may be your opinion but I am afraid I disagree" you will so often hear "That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard"

Well thats how fans are

Yeah, but the English fans are never this defensive about their players. Australians aren't either, to be honest. I mean I criticise the Australian players as much as I do the Indian players here. Yet, I've never had so many Aussies here get all rabid over me not liking Michael Clarke.

It's like the Indian fans have built up a whole narrative of India's victories in their heads, and have conveniently forgotten the humiliating losses - no wonder they think it's the best team in the world. There is no sense of balance at all. At least the other fans can look at their own teams somewhat objectively - no such thing exists with the Indians. They treat criticism - as you said - like blasphemy; it's pretty bizarre.

 

[martin88]

Well yeah, they're a good side, but not a champion side. The "merely" was to make a distinction between the good and champion side, and not to patronise India. I already think Dhoni is the best captain India have had in the recent years - he's not as conservative and timid as Dravid, and not as puerile and annoying as Ganguly. He also says some hilarious things in press interviews. But to me, a team unable to "go in for the kill against the the weaker teams" is not a champion side.

The thing I find ridiculous is the sense of complacency Indian fans have. "Well we won 1-0, what's the difference? It's all the same, 1-0, 3-0." It's "for the statistician" as someone said (Jono?). I sincerely hope he was joking.



Yeah, but the English fans are never this defensive about their players. Australians aren't either, to be honest. I mean I criticise the Australian players as much as I do the Indian players here. Yet, I've never had so many Aussies here get all rabid over me not liking Michael Clarke.

It's like the Indian fans have built up a whole narrative of India's victories in their heads, and have conveniently forgotten the humiliating losses - no wonder they think it's the best team in the world. There is no sense of balance at all. At least the other fans can look at their own teams somewhat objectively - no such thing exists with the Indians. They treat criticism - as you said - like blasphemy; it's pretty bizarre.

 

[SJS]

Well yeah, they're a good side, but not a champion side. The "merely" was to make a distinction between the good and champion side, and not to patronise India. I already think Dhoni is the best captain India have had in the recent years - he's not as conservative and timid as Dravid, and not as puerile and annoying as Ganguly. He also says some hilarious things in press interviews. But to me, a team unable to "go in for the kill against the the weaker teams" is not a champion side.

The thing I find ridiculous is the sense of complacency Indian fans have. "Well we won 1-0, what's the difference? It's all the same, 1-0, 3-0." It's "for the statistician" as someone said (Jono?). I sincerely hope he was joking.



Yeah, but the English fans are never this defensive about their players. Australians aren't either, to be honest. I mean I criticise the Australian players as much as I do the Indian players here. Yet, I've never had so many Aussies here get all rabid over me not liking Michael Clarke.

It's like the Indian fans have built up a whole narrative of India's victories in their heads, and have conveniently forgotten the humiliating losses - no wonder they think it's the best team in the world. There is no sense of balance at all. At least the other fans can look at their own teams somewhat objectively - no such thing exists with the Indians. They treat criticism - as you said - like blasphemy; it's pretty bizarre.

Well you will find objectivity in some Indian fans as you will find it in some Kiwi fans too But I agree in the sub-continent we are a bit over the top with our 'devotion' and 'patriotism' in matters sporting. Its a bit understandable considering the lack of sustained success we have had for so long.

I dont think many knowledgeable cricket writers in India call this the best side in the world but behind so close to number two in both forms of the game and the gap with the top team reducing does give ample reason for optimism.

Cant blame them can you? I mean just see how England go over board when any tennis player (I have Henman in mind here not Murray) wins three matches in a row. Its tough to play a game for so long and be bereft of Championship wins.

 

[martin88]

Evermind,

For once could you please suggest why you do not think India is not a champion team at the moment at least? In the last 3 series, they have won without losing a single test match. Draws are inevitable because the teams India have played against, ie, England, Aus and NZ, are not exactly the bottom of the barrel types mate.

I prefer a 1-0 scoreline in a 3-test series to a 2-1 scoreline. The former indicates I was never defeated, the latter indicates I was just slightly the better of the two.

 

[honestbharani]

Well yeah, they're a good side, but not a champion side. The "merely" was to make a distinction between the good and champion side, and not to patronise India. I already think Dhoni is the best captain India have had in the recent years - he's not as conservative and timid as Dravid, and not as puerile and annoying as Ganguly. He also says some hilarious things in press interviews. But to me, a team unable to "go in for the kill against the the weaker teams" is not a champion side.

The thing I find ridiculous is the sense of complacency Indian fans have. "Well we won 1-0, what's the difference? It's all the same, 1-0, 3-0." It's "for the statistician" as someone said (Jono?). I sincerely hope he was joking.



Yeah, but the English fans are never this defensive about their players. Australians aren't either, to be honest. I mean I criticise the Australian players as much as I do the Indian players here. Yet, I've never had so many Aussies here get all rabid over me not liking Michael Clarke.

It's like the Indian fans have built up a whole narrative of India's victories in their heads, and have conveniently forgotten the humiliating losses - no wonder they think it's the best team in the world. There is no sense of balance at all. At least the other fans can look at their own teams somewhat objectively - no such thing exists with the Indians. They treat criticism - as you said - like blasphemy; it's pretty bizarre.

link us to the posts where the Indian fans here have said that..

 

[biased indian]

Well yeah, they're a good side, but not a champion side. The "merely" was to make a distinction between the good and champion side, and not to patronise India. I already think Dhoni is the best captain India have had in the recent years - he's not as conservative and timid as Dravid, and not as puerile and annoying as Ganguly. He also says some hilarious things in press interviews. But to me, a team unable to "go in for the kill against the the weaker teams" is not a champion side.

champion side is allowed to lose the dead rubber too often ??

 

[biased indian]

to me this has confirmed its precam

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

to me this has confirmed its precam

Just the use of "mate" and posting rate did that, tbh

 

[Uppercut]

Well you will find objectivity in some Indian fans as you will find it in some Kiwi fans too But I agree in the sub-continent we are a bit over the top with our 'devotion' and 'patriotism' in matters sporting. Its a bit understandable considering the lack of sustained success we have had for so long.

I dont think many knowledgeable cricket writers in India call this the best side in the world but behind so close to number two in both forms of the game and the gap with the top team reducing does give ample reason for optimism.

Cant blame them can you? I mean just see how England go over board when any tennis player (I have Henman in mind here not Murray) wins three matches in a row. Its tough to play a game for so long and be bereft of Championship wins.

Pretty well put. I tried to make a point like this some time back but it didn't really go down well because it inadvertently implied bad things about Indian cricket.

I don't think anyone here has tried to say it applies to all Indian fans, and i wouldn't even know whether it applies to the majority, but you'll certainly get much more of a reaction saying an Indian cricketer is overrated than you will when you say the same of a West Indian or Australian, for example.

 

[Sanz]

Pretty well put. I tried to make a point like this some time back but it didn't really go down well because it inadvertently implied bad things about Indian cricket.

I don't think anyone here has tried to say it applies to all Indian fans, and i wouldn't even know whether it applies to the majority, but you'll certainly get much more of a reaction saying an Indian cricketer is overrated than you will when you say the same of a West Indian or Australian, for example.

Look at the population , if we calculated the %age, we will be a lot lower than those who equate Princess Diana with Mother Teresa.

 

[Sanz]

lol.. Sanz on fire.. complete AWTA..

Haha..makes me mad at times to hear this kind of debate. Its like no one will ever be better than Tiger (Nawab) Pataudi and that is because "Pataudi having the attitude of a Prince while Dhoni is obviously not a prince" obviously made him a better captain and blah blah blah. Give me a cricketing/logical reason Please.....and I will take you seriously..

Opinions and statements like these make me lose all the respect about the person who makes it. Those princes looted the money of common people and lived like a king at common man's misery and now we have to hear that it made them better.

 

[ret]

On Indian fans being over the top,

first, I didn't know there was a scale available where you could measure over-the-top qualities of fans

second, how is a typical Indian fan compared? Is he compared with a fan in England, where soccer is more popular than cricket, or a fan in NZ, where Rugby rules? It must be understood that cricket is a prime sport in India and to judge an Indian fan one has to judge how the fans following the prime sport in other countries are. Indian soccer fans will usually appear more humble than a English soccer fans, who are known for violence. If you take the most popular sport of respective countries then it would be interesting to see how Indian cricket fans are compared to English soccer fans or NZ Rugby fans

third, sports is about emotions too. the more passionate you are abt something the more emotional you get. it's probably hard to beat Indian cricket fans as far as passion for cricket is concerned. If I am following a sport then it's because I am passionate abt it, and if I am passionate abt something I can lose some of my objectivity


On Dhoni's declaration,

I felt that he could have put NZ in the first thing on day 4. I know Ind hadn't won in NZ for a long time, blah blah but to me the key consideration of declaration should be how a game is shaping up. You have to ask yourself, whats a good score that would have taken NZ out of the game. At the end of day 3, Ind already had a score that took NZ out of the game, imo .... If NZ could chase over 500 in last inning then they could even chase 600. If 600 is tough to chase then so is 500

Would I criticize Dhoni for not declaring? Probably not as I assume that he is someone who doesn't take rain in to consideration. India would have bowled out NZ in those 5 sessions, if rain hadn't played a part so no points taken away from Dhoni


And knowing how this forum works, I would expect some asshole to pick out a line from my post and try to debate on matter that has been explained if he read the post properly

 

[duffer]

I don't think anyone here has tried to say it applies to all Indian fans, and i wouldn't even know whether it applies to the majority, but you'll certainly get much more of a reaction saying an Indian cricketer is overrated than you will when you say the same of a West Indian or Australian, for example.

Just suggest that Murali was a better bowler than Warne and watch the threads explode. Never understood this thought about Indians and don't think it's true at all unless you somehow go looking and noting every Indian's reaction to a criticism. Funnily enough apart from Precam egging things along I didn't see anyone up in arms about people criticizing Dhoni's poor declaration for example or Yuvraj's batting etc etc.

EDIT: Not having a go at you specifically, just the thought that Indians are an angry little mob looking to get defensive about everything which I find hilarious more than anything.

 

[Athlai]

On Indian fans being over the top,

Semi colon there top;

 

[Shri]

On Indian fans being over the top,

first, I didn't know there was a scale available where you could measure over-the-top qualities of fans

second, how is a typical Indian fan compared? Is he compared with a fan in England, where soccer is more popular than cricket, or a fan in NZ, where Rugby rules? It must be understood that cricket is a prime sport in India and to judge an Indian fan one has to judge how the fans following the prime sport in other countries are. Indian soccer fans will usually appear more humble than a English soccer fans, who are known for violence. If you take the most popular sport of respective countries then it would be interesting to see how Indian cricket fans are compared to English soccer fans or NZ Rugby fans

third, sports is about emotions too. the more passionate you are abt something the more emotional you get. it's probably hard to beat Indian cricket fans as far as passion for cricket is concerned. If I am following a sport then it's because I am passionate abt it, and if I am passionate abt something I can lose some of my objectivity


On Dhoni's declaration,

I felt that he could have put NZ in the first thing on day 4. I know Ind hadn't won in NZ for a long time, blah blah but to me the key consideration of declaration should be how a game is shaping up. You have to ask yourself, whats a good score that would have taken NZ out of the game. At the end of day 3, Ind already had a score that took NZ out of the game, imo .... If NZ could chase over 500 in last inning then they could even chase 600. If 600 is tough to chase then so is 500

Would I criticize Dhoni for not declaring? Probably not as I assume that he is someone who doesn't take rain in to consideration. India would have bowled out NZ in those 5 sessions, if rain hadn't played a part so no points taken away from Dhoni


And knowing how this forum works, I would expect some asshole to pick out a line from my post and try to debate on matter that has been explained if he read the post properly

Great post. Never thought about cricket in India this way untill now.

 

[Prince EWS]

Semi colon there top;

!!

 

[G.I.Joe]

Top post by ret tbh.

 

[Lambu]

Top post by ret tbh.

Seconded. That ought to shut the haters(oh,but they criticize all teams equally)

 

[Krishna_j]

Just the use of "mate" and posting rate did that, tbh

Type crap - mean Black crap

 

[Pratters]

Gavaskar - Strategy was fine.

From his column in Telegraph India -

Sure, there will be some who would say that a 2-0 win was frittered away by a late declaration but these are the same who, when a batsman has got a century will dwell on a chance he gave in his 20s or if a bowler has captured 5 wickets will talk about how many no balls he bowled.

They can never be satisfied and are always looking for a fault some where. The fact of the matter is simple. India were 1-0 up and if any team had to make the moves it was New Zealand if they wanted to level the series. This is not being defensive.

It is being pracrical. The Indians rightly shut New Zealand out of the game and then tried to win. Nothing wrong with that at all.