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The Official Pakistan Politics thread

Agent Nationaux

Well-known member
Fusion the aid problem is our own fault. Do you think we would have needed that health aid from the US if our politicians had not been greedy or corrupt. Of course we would not have needed it. If that was the case then we would be utilising our resources rather than wishing we could utilise them. That is the difference Imran wants to create. He wants to stop corruption which will ensure that the correct resources go to the correct departments so we don't have these problems. We have to sort out our own problems and there has to be a start somewhere. Without US aid we will initially suffer, but eventually we will overcome this problem. When Pakistan was created we had so many problems, and few resources but look at what our forefathers did to change that. They worked hard so that the next generation would not have the same problems.
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
It is a common tactic to start pointing fingers at another party when one cannot make a valid defence of one's actions. Rather than own up to their own mistakes and obligations and seek to make restitution, they'd rather point fingers at the other and wash their hands off the situation. The US has done far better in that they've atleast made effort to repair the damage they've done in Afghanistan by propping up the warlords. Pakistan would rather act hurt, disown all responsibility, and submit a bill for cleaning up a mess they've had a hand in creating. That's the difference.
haha......previously arguing that pashtun governors on non-pashtun provinces were causing resentment now arguing that propping up warlords is good (most of which are non-pashtun and thrust them on a pashtun population) 8-)

Nice try
 

smalishah84

The Tiger King
The Taliban view aside even if I were to side with you on the Taliban issue there is this small matter of the current politicians which are destroying the country completely. It might be that Imran might do more damage than these guys but he will have to try really hard.

Here is official cables from wikileaks

"But what about a prime minister who tells the American ambassador he will go through the motions of protesting in parliament about American drone attacks on his country, and then promptly ignore the matter? What about a military head in a democracy who tells the ambassador he is weighing the pros and cons of replacing the elected president except for the fact that he dislikes the leader of the opposition, who would probably win another election, even more than he dislikes the president?

What about a president who finds it necessary to show documentary evidence to the American ambassador that his assassinated wife had designated him as her successor and now plans for the country to be handed over to his sister in the event of his own assassination? Was his party even aware of this? Silly question! What about an American ambassador who has the temerity to insist the illegally removed chief justice of the Supreme Court will not be restored, to accuse the Lahore High Court of being anti-American, to recommend that the human rights violations of the Pakistan army be hushed up and to extract a commitment from the incoming president to grant immunity to the outgoing dictator who tore up the constitution and was suspected of being directly or indirectly responsible for the assassination of the president’s wife?"


Wikileaks and Imran Khan - Ashraf Jehangir Qazi
So Fusion. Do you still prefer these guys to Imran?
 

Agent Nationaux

Well-known member
Yeah, right. Your escapist argument for why there shouldn't be one mop-up is that the other spots aren't also being mopped up. That's a fine principle to live by.

Your country might be able to afford to do that and its great to intervene and remove crappy regimes but Pakistan has its own problems to deal with and we have still managed to take in thousands of refugees from Afghanistan. Fighting the TTP in Pakistan has cost thousands of lives, how are we able to then deal with Afghanistan.

Pakistan has caused a lot of problems no doubt about that. I hate the Pakistani military for what they have done in the region and how they have cheated their own people and are playing a double game with the US.
 
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Cevno

Well-known member
haha......previously arguing that pashtun governors on non-pashtun provinces were causing resentment now arguing that propping up warlords is good (most of which are non-pashtun and thrust them on a pashtun population) 8-)

Nice try
Tbf, i think you misunderstood him.:p
 

G.I.Joe

Well-known member
haha......previously arguing that pashtun governors on non-pashtun provinces were causing resentment now arguing that propping up warlords is good (most of which are non-pashtun and thrust them on a pashtun population) 8-)

Nice try
You've mixed up the clauses. Propping up the warlords was the mistake the US made (the damage they've done in Afghanistan by propping up the warlords)

Mmm, interesting that those same things apply to one of the world's major oil suppliers but surely that is not reason enough to kick them out of power is it? Better to have the warlords commit genocide than to have an authoritarian regime 8-)

Look, you can very reasonably question the selectiveness of the US advocating a regime change in one country and not in others, but it is extremely silly to pretend that that is reason enough to not attempt in the one situation at all.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
So Fusion. Do you still prefer these guys to Imran?
Didn't you say there was no point in us debating because our world views are very different? :p

You are citing power-hungry behavior of various politicians in Pakistan. I don’t condone that behavior and I wish we had better leaders. However, I have listed various inconsistencies and (IMO) dangerous policies of Imran as well. I’ve said this before - if forced to choose, I would rather take a corrupt Zardari who’s out to loot the country than a dangerous Imran who’s (inadvertently) out to destroy the country.
 

Agent Nationaux

Well-known member
Corrupt Zardari would destroy the country anyway.

Tipu Sultan once said that he would prefer the 1 year life of a lion than the 100 year life of a donkey. I would rather have someone with a backbone to say no to the US.
 

Agent Nationaux

Well-known member
Fusion the question you need to ask is, will Imran really support terrorists, or is he really a terrorist sympathiser? I don't for an instance believe that a man who has done so much for Pakistan by building a cancer hospital or a college will allow extremists to overtake the country. Why would Imran deal with terrorists when he wants a better relationship with India. He has friends in the West, why would he go against them and side with the terrorists. He cares about the tribal people in Pakistan. They are Pakistanis fusion, and have done nothing wrong. It's them who he wants to make peace with. He hates the TTP and has numerous of times supported military action against them. So why is he a terrorist sympathiser.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Corrupt Zardari would destroy the country anyway.

Tipu Sultan once said that he would prefer the 1 year life of a lion than the 100 year life of a donkey. I would rather have someone with a backbone to say no to the US.
I can easily turn that phrase around and apply it to Imran. I would rather have someone with the backbone to face the Taliban/Extremists. Alas, we're now going around in circles with no end in sight. :(
 

Sanz

Well-known member
As promised, let me present a case against The Messiah, err I mean Imran Khan. I warn you, this will be a long read. I also fully expect this thread to blow up in outrage over my remarks and for me to be labeled as a tool for corrupt politicians like Zardari/Nawaz/Altaf. So be it. I’m going to start with listing a few things I like about Imran. First and foremost, he’s my favorite cricket player of all-time and the reason I started watching the sport. That’s not really relevant to this thread though (but I do wonder how many of his supporters mix their feelings for the cricket player with the politician). I believe Imran is probably the least corrupt of all Pakistani politicians. I don’t think he can ever be bought, which is an admirable thing. I also greatly admire his efforts in building the cancer hospital for the poor, which is probably his life’s greatest achievement. See there? I can see the good in him. Unfortunately, I also see the bad.

Imran’s a hypocrite:

This supposed champion of democracy and people’s power actually has a terrible record in supporting democracy itself. He had a very friendly relationship with arguably the worst dictator in Pakistan’s history, Zia Ul Haq. But that was prior to his entry into politics and one can argue he was merely indulging the head of state. However, nothing can justify this democratic champion’s support of General Musharraf in 1999. That’s right folks; Imran supported the military coup that overthrew Nawaz Sharif. Now there is no doubt that Sharif was corrupt and incompetent, and was pushing Pakistan to tilt even more towards a religious hard line. Be that as it may, he was the democratically elected Prime Minister of the country. If Imran didn’t like his policies (and 90% of the country didn’t), he should’ve led a campaign to defeat him at the polls. Instead, he supported the military in toppling democracy. If a politician in any other country where democracy is practiced had done the same thing as Imran, his legitimacy to govern would forever be tarnished. In Pakistan, Imran is treated like the savior of democracy, and today every other sentence from Imran’s mouth is about the will of the people and practicing democratic principles! Also, after consistently accusing Altaf Hussain of murder and even filing a case against him, he has since softened his stance. Why even consider aligning yourself with “murderers” Mr. Khan? Inconsistent much?

Imran also loves to attack the character of his political rivals. He advocates personal responsibility and doing the right thing. Of course what Imran forgets to mention is none of that actually applies to him. The Sita White affair is proof of that. Imran conceived an illegitimate child with Sita White, Tyrian, and then denied being the father. He lost a paternity suit in 1997. To me, it is absolutely disgusting that he would run away from his responsibility like that. We all make mistakes and I don’t fault Imran for conceiving a child when he didn’t intend to. I do, however, fault him for abandoning said child and refusing to own up to his mistake. What moral standing does Imran have to criticize Zardari, Nawaz, or any other politician’s characters when he himself is no paradigm of virtue? Oh by the way, if anyone has the gall to attack him on the Sita White issue, Imran is not above responding with a racist joke (listen from 2:20 onwards). For those that don’t understand Urdu, Imran responds to a dark-skinned politician’s claim that Tyrian looks like him (Imran) by saying that if he went to Africa, he’s sure to find lots of children that look like the (dark-skinned) politician. Class personified!

Imran’s soft on extremism:

Imran has consistently been soft on extremist parties in Pakistan, as well as the Taliban. IMO, he only offers lip service about Taliban being evil terrorists. All I ask is that Imran only protest half as much against the act of terrorism that the Taliban commit as he does against the United States. Hey Imran, how about staging a dharna against the Taliban? Just once? Instead, he is willing to pick a gun and join them against the US! Let that sink in for a second. He is willing to join the same guys who routinely blow up innocent children, bomb schools and hospitals, and behead anyone who doesn’t wear a beard. He surrounds himself with extremists like Ejaz Chaudhry and Hamid Gul. He also formed an alliance in the past with one of the most hard-line extremist parties in Pakistan, the Jamat e Islami (until things turned sour later politically and they parted ways). Imran’s solution to ending terrorism is for America to withdraw from the subcontinent and to have “peace talks” with the Taliban. He ignores the fact that the Taliban took advantage of previous peace deals offered to them by Pakistan to regroup and plan even more attacks. And of course the Taliban will leave Pakistan alone if Pakistan leaves them alone. That’s what they want! To be left alone to commit atrocities without anyone stopping them. What Imran needs to understand is that the Taliban are butchers and monsters. We shouldn’t be making peace deals with them, we should be eradicating them.
Agree with every word stated above. The question I want to ask you is :- Is Imran the best person to lead Pakistan among the available choices you have at the moment ?

If not then who ?
 

Faisal1985

Well-known member
Not sure about Imran's policy of removing the military option and having a political solution through Dialogue with the terrorists tbh.

It may be good political posturing as the mood in Pakistan right now ought to be Anti - West generally, but also not sure how feasible distancing Pakistan from the US in terms of fighting the taliban, not taking aid etc.... would be.

Also then there is the question of how much power actually a civilian government can wield in Pakistan with the Military and the ISI etc.. always keen to play a political role and being quite powerful. Some of the domestic changes he has proposed are good theoretically, but he would need absolute power of the state to enforce them because the implementation part is the major issue on South Asia right now in every country, not lack of thinking or what is on paper or the statutes.
Its not only Imran saying that...recent news has shown that Hillary admitted that ISI helped them talk to some of the strongest wings of the Taliban and again now Hillary wants a dialogue with Taliban...

Imran has an issue with the double game of U.S. When Pak tried to do a dialogue on its own with the Taliban to end the suicide bombings in Pakistan, U.S. establishment was all over Pakistan for doing that where as they are constantly making efforts to have Taliban lay down arms via dialogue and join the Karzai government. Imran is rightly against this type of double attitude of the U.S.

Moreover, he is not talking Anti-West at all, he is talking about equality. He said in his speech that we will be friends with the U.S. but on basis of equality and mutual respect.

He is also seriously against the drone attacks in Pakistan which come with a great number of collateral in terms of innocent lives. Almost over 150 children have been killed because of these strikes.

According to Imran, if Pakistan can tighten the loose ends in collecting tax and make sure that tax revenues are properly collected and accounted for, Pakistan's requirement for foreign aid will significantly drop and Pak will actually be able to pay back the principle amounts on its debts.

Moreover, according to him our power plants currently are only operating at 25 - 30 % of their capacity in Wapda, If he can only get them to run at 70% the load shedding and power outages would be cut down significantly as well.

Whether his theories and strategies are correct or as accurate or not, at least the man is talking about issues that matter for the general public.

He is big on accountability and independent judiciary as well as independent police force.

He also said that he would implement the American system of how they elect their sheriff in Pakistan to elect the Police head.

He is talking sense which no one has ever talked about since Bhutto...he is at least listing out real issues....that is enough for me to vote PTI...
 

Faisal1985

Well-known member
As promised, let me present a case against The Messiah, err I mean Imran Khan. I warn you, this will be a long read. I also fully expect this thread to blow up in outrage over my remarks and for me to be labeled as a tool for corrupt politicians like Zardari/Nawaz/Altaf. So be it. I’m going to start with listing a few things I like about Imran. First and foremost, he’s my favorite cricket player of all-time and the reason I started watching the sport. That’s not really relevant to this thread though (but I do wonder how many of his supporters mix their feelings for the cricket player with the politician). I believe Imran is probably the least corrupt of all Pakistani politicians. I don’t think he can ever be bought, which is an admirable thing. I also greatly admire his efforts in building the cancer hospital for the poor, which is probably his life’s greatest achievement. See there? I can see the good in him. Unfortunately, I also see the bad.

Imran’s a hypocrite:

This supposed champion of democracy and people’s power actually has a terrible record in supporting democracy itself. He had a very friendly relationship with arguably the worst dictator in Pakistan’s history, Zia Ul Haq. But that was prior to his entry into politics and one can argue he was merely indulging the head of state. However, nothing can justify this democratic champion’s support of General Musharraf in 1999. That’s right folks; Imran supported the military coup that overthrew Nawaz Sharif. Now there is no doubt that Sharif was corrupt and incompetent, and was pushing Pakistan to tilt even more towards a religious hard line. Be that as it may, he was the democratically elected Prime Minister of the country. If Imran didn’t like his policies (and 90% of the country didn’t), he should’ve led a campaign to defeat him at the polls. Instead, he supported the military in toppling democracy. If a politician in any other country where democracy is practiced had done the same thing as Imran, his legitimacy to govern would forever be tarnished. In Pakistan, Imran is treated like the savior of democracy, and today every other sentence from Imran’s mouth is about the will of the people and practicing democratic principles! Also, after consistently accusing Altaf Hussain of murder and even filing a case against him, he has since softened his stance. Why even consider aligning yourself with “murderers” Mr. Khan? Inconsistent much?

Imran also loves to attack the character of his political rivals. He advocates personal responsibility and doing the right thing. Of course what Imran forgets to mention is none of that actually applies to him. The Sita White affair is proof of that. Imran conceived an illegitimate child with Sita White, Tyrian, and then denied being the father. He lost a paternity suit in 1997. To me, it is absolutely disgusting that he would run away from his responsibility like that. We all make mistakes and I don’t fault Imran for conceiving a child when he didn’t intend to. I do, however, fault him for abandoning said child and refusing to own up to his mistake. What moral standing does Imran have to criticize Zardari, Nawaz, or any other politician’s characters when he himself is no paradigm of virtue? Oh by the way, if anyone has the gall to attack him on the Sita White issue, Imran is not above responding with a racist joke (listen from 2:20 onwards). For those that don’t understand Urdu, Imran responds to a dark-skinned politician’s claim that Tyrian looks like him (Imran) by saying that if he went to Africa, he’s sure to find lots of children that look like the (dark-skinned) politician. Class personified!

Imran’s soft on extremism:

Imran has consistently been soft on extremist parties in Pakistan, as well as the Taliban. IMO, he only offers lip service about Taliban being evil terrorists. All I ask is that Imran only protest half as much against the act of terrorism that the Taliban commit as he does against the United States. Hey Imran, how about staging a dharna against the Taliban? Just once? Instead, he is willing to pick a gun and join them against the US! Let that sink in for a second. He is willing to join the same guys who routinely blow up innocent children, bomb schools and hospitals, and behead anyone who doesn’t wear a beard. He surrounds himself with extremists like Ejaz Chaudhry and Hamid Gul. He also formed an alliance in the past with one of the most hard-line extremist parties in Pakistan, the Jamat e Islami (until things turned sour later politically and they parted ways). Imran’s solution to ending terrorism is for America to withdraw from the subcontinent and to have “peace talks” with the Taliban. He ignores the fact that the Taliban took advantage of previous peace deals offered to them by Pakistan to regroup and plan even more attacks. And of course the Taliban will leave Pakistan alone if Pakistan leaves them alone. That’s what they want! To be left alone to commit atrocities without anyone stopping them. What Imran needs to understand is that the Taliban are butchers and monsters. We shouldn’t be making peace deals with them, we should be eradicating them.
But don't you think Imran is lesser of the evils we have currently in our politics/government?


The Sita White case that you said he lost, was that on the basis of DNA testing which proved Imran to be the father? (just curious I am not fully aware of the case)..
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
Agree with every word stated above. The question I want to ask you is :- Is Imran the best person to lead Pakistan among the available choices you have at the moment ?

If not then who ?
Not sure if you are asking me that question or the general public. My response is that Imran is superior in many respects to the choices we have – he’s not corrupt, he’s obviously intelligent, and I think he actually cares for Pakistan. Sadly, I can’t think of many other politicians in Pakistan that possess these same qualities. However he fails in crucial areas which prevent me from supporting him. As long as he’s soft on terrorism and associates himself with extremists, I can’t support him. I would grudgingly support a Zardari before Imran. While he may be looting the country’s coffers, at least Zardari’s party is secular and willing to take on the Taliban. Sure, they may be doing it to appease the Americans and not because it’s the right thing to do, but since it is the right thing to do (IMO of course), I’m just happy it’s getting done.

But don't you think Imran is lesser of the evils we have currently in our politics/government?
See my response to Sanz above. :)

The Sita White case that you said he lost, was that on the basis of DNA testing which proved Imran to be the father? (just curious I am not fully aware of the case)..
No, he lost the case by default when he didn't show up to contest it. It was obvious why he didn't though - she is his daughter and he has quietly acknowledged this now since Sita White passed away.
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Not sure if you are asking me that question or the general public. My response is that Imran is superior in many respects to the choices we have – he’s not corrupt, he’s obviously intelligent, and I think he actually cares for Pakistan. Sadly, I can’t think of many other politicians in Pakistan that possess these same qualities. However he fails in crucial areas which prevent me from supporting him. As long as he’s soft on terrorism and associates himself with extremists, I can’t support him. I would grudgingly support a Zardari before Imran. While he may be looting the country’s coffers, at least Zardari’s party is secular and willing to take on the Taliban. Sure, they may be doing it to appease the Americans and not because it’s the right thing to do, but since it is the right thing to do (IMO of course), I’m just happy it’s getting done.
Thanks for the response. I think I disagree with you on your choice of Zardari over Imran as Pakistan's leader. I do not believe Imran or Imran's party are non-secular. The government of Pakistan alone can not fight the Taliban without the help of Pakistani people. And the current government does not have that respect. I do not believe he is pro Taliban or that he supports terrorists.

I am not an apologist for Taliban: Imran Khan - YouTube

I somewhat agree with him on what he says above.
 
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