Monogamy

[Uppercut]

Globalisation means that no society exists in isolation. Moreover, the culture of dominant societies tends to pervade other societies. This doesn't mean that every facet of those societies is superior. That should be quite obvious. Throw in religious missonaries and...well you get it.

I brought it up because I'm challenging the concept that marriage and/or long term monogamy is the best method for raising children. I'm pointing out that it's a facet of society and culture, just like other things such as our education systems, our religions, our diet etc that may not actually be the best system.

Finally, I would point out that the concept of marriage has only recently been ascribed with the concept of love. That wasn't really it's purpose, throughout history.

I think it's quite likely that the advantages that led to marriage being (almost) universally adopted were mostly military. I don't know what the mechanism was, but it became widely established in a very violent time. I'm pretty sceptical that this is immediately relevant. I don't think that if we do away with marriage, the tribe next door will wipe us out and eat our babies. If I was really pushing this argument I would instead point to how much worse children of unmarried couples (like myself) do on every metric you can think of- we're unhappier, poorer, more likely to experience various kinds of bad stuff, etc. This tallies with the personal experience of a few people in this thread, too.

Look, you're free to raise your kids any way you like, I certainly won't judge you for it. If you do a great job of it then maybe others will copy it, and the system will spread to the point where it becomes the new norm. That's how these things change. But as of right now, alternatives to marriage as a way of raising kids are performing really badly empirically.

 

[hendrix]

I think it's quite likely that the advantages that led to marriage being (almost) universally adopted were mostly military. I don't know what the mechanism was, but it became widely established in a very violent time. I'm pretty sceptical that this is immediately relevant. I don't think that if we do away with marriage, the tribe next door will wipe us out and eat our babies. If I was really pushing this argument I would instead point to how much worse children of unmarried couples (like myself) do on every metric you can think of- we're unhappier, poorer, more likely to experience various kinds of bad stuff, etc. This tallies with the personal experience of a few people in this thread, too.

Look, you're free to raise your kids any way you like, I certainly won't judge you for it. If you do a great job of it then maybe others will copy it, and the system will spread to the point where it becomes the new norm. That's how these things change. But as of right now, alternatives to marriage as a way of raising kids are performing really badly empirically.

OK, that maybe true (all though I would like an up-to-date source), but I think that's more likely due to bad divorces and bad parenting than anything wrong with with being separated and/or non-monogamous. It also may be due to the societal stigma associated with divorce, which while not so brutal as it once was in developed countries, is definitely still present in most of the world. Hell, you don't need to go back that long in developed countries for it to have been quite a big deal.

 

[harsh.ag]

Marriage is not equal to a nuclear family where you need to present a united front so that you've provided a good base in life for your 1.7 kids. People were married in the Western world before the industrial revolution, but the kids were often raised by villages and farms.

We have this cultural myth of finding the one complimentary person with whom we'll definitely live forever, then producing children as an extension of ourselves into the future, and it ****s all of us up, parents and kids alike.

Yeah. Everyone should be looking to build a whole ecosystem of friends and neighbours which makes it so much easier to have a good marriage post-children.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

OK, time for some good old honest heart on sleeve stuff.

Me and my 2 brothers come from a broken home, my parents weren't in any "open relationship" my Mum just decided to **** off with the next door neighbour when I was 8, my older brothers were 13 and 14. I was the lucky one, by the time I was 11 my Dad remarried to an incredible woman who raised me as her own and I had the most fantastic home life and upbringing. My brothers unfortunately did not fair so well, being that bit older they floated between Mum and Dad and honestly, the whole experience messed them up.....especially the oldest who is still one of the most ****ed up people I know.

Now my own marriage is pretty **** tbh, been 20 years and we fell out of love a long time ago. We're still mates and live together and raise our kids and it's not so bad...........my wife's councillor basically said we're business partners in the business of running a house and raising kids.

Me and the missus have talked at length about this and we both agree that our situation can not and will not change until the kids have grown up, left home and forged a life for themselves. I've seen for myself how it affected my brothers.......there is no way I could live with myself and put my kids through that.

Bottom line, kids need a stable upbringing. Doesn't have to be Mum and Dad but it needs to be stable.

Similar but slightly different and know exactly where you coming from.

My mum left when I was 10, I knew she was going and had seen the house she was moving to but somehow I wasn't told when she was going and found out when there was a van with all her stuff in outside the house when I got home from school.

Now married myself with kids who are at secondary school and in a loveless relationship but I won't do anything about it till my kids have left school as I know how it messes with a childs head.

Would I like somebody to be there for me? Yes, but I am not going to risk my kids happiness for a quick fumble with someone else or an affair etc... Unless it was a rich bird with a great body then i may have my head turned.

It is how it is, **** happens. You get on with it.

 

[Uppercut]

OK, that maybe true (all though I would like an up-to-date source), but I think that's more likely due to bad divorces and bad parenting than anything wrong with with being separated and/or non-monogamous. It also may be due to the societal stigma associated with divorce, which while not so brutal as it once was in developed countries, is definitely still present in most of the world. Hell, you don't need to go back that long in developed countries for it to have been quite a big deal.

There is definitely some societal stigma effect. Where I'm from, being from an unmarried background can make it very difficult to get into a good primary school. Although studies can control for a lot of that stuff. Based on my experience I'd be absolutely amazed if the unstable-home-life messy-divorce effect wasn't much more significant.

Out of interest, do you have anything empirical to support your own ideas on the subject?

 

[hendrix]

There is definitely some societal stigma effect. Where I'm from, being from an unmarried background can make it very difficult to get into a good primary school. Although studies can control for a lot of that stuff. Based on my experience I'd be absolutely amazed if the unstable-home-life messy-divorce effect wasn't much more significant.

Out of interest, do you have anything empirical to support your own ideas on the subject?

No, I don't. I ask the question because it is becoming apparent to me that a long term, monogamous partner may not be the right option for me, based on my experiences and an honest appraisal of my desires. But I definitely want kids. But I would consider it morally dubious to have kids if I thought that it was indeed worse to bring them into such an environment. Hence the curiosity.

A quick google search:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-divorce-bad-for-children/

Researchers have found that only a relatively small percentage of children experience serious problems in the wake of divorce or, later, as adults.
...
On average, the studies found only very small differences on all these measures between children of divorced parents and those from intact families, suggesting that the vast majority of children endure divorce well.

 

[zorax]

IMO a marriage is basically a partnership

You agree to help each others lives, and to work as a team where you got each ofhers back. Its you two vs the world. You can rely and depend on each other. Its more than love. Its trust. Its loyalty.

But people change. The person your marry will most likely not be the same person in 5, 10, 15 years time. Will they still be the person you made this agreement with all those years ago? Are there inherent characteristics of people that dont change with time, that you can identify and marry them for?

Idk.

Personally i've had so many heartbreaks ive begun to stop expecting anything out of the girls i date. People dont know what they want most of their time, and their feelings can change at the drop of a hat. Add in online dating and busy lives and people just have so many other options with what to do with their time that patching up a not-perfect relationship just isnt worth it to most folks. Ghost them and move on to the next one. Its kinda depressing.

I dont know if monogamy is the future of my generation. I think not.

 

[GIMH]

Of course monogamy is the future of your generation.

Forget the kids and all that, I quite frankly cbf to talk about it and my days of going deep on CW about my personal life ended long ago.

But for the majority of people, when they fall in love, they want that person to be theirs exclusively. It doesn't mean it will be permanent, and it doesn't mean everyone is like this, but it's human nature. I don't think it's any more complex than that.

 

[zorax]

Is fades tho, thats the problem

I get what people mean when they say relationships fizzle out. I've been at both ends of that. It feels like its been accelerated given people have more choice with what to do with their lives in terms of where they live, what they do and who they meet.

But hey, just my experience.

 

[indiaholic]

Hey monogamy doesn't mean being with the same person all your life... Just that when you are with a person it is exclusive. I am very much a serial monogamist.

 

[zorax]

Hey monogamy doesn't mean being with the same person all your life... Just that when you are with a person it is exclusive. I am very much a serial monogamist.

Okay yea this i can get on board with

 

[hendrix]

But for the majority of people, when they fall in love, they want that person to be theirs exclusively. It doesn't mean it will be permanent, and it doesn't mean everyone is like this, but it's human nature. I don't think it's any more complex than that.

I understand why you might think that, but I'm coming to think that the only reasons for this prevalence stem from jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness, not actual love.

Moreover, what people want is not necessarily the way things should be. It might be human nature to want your kid to get the best job and get into the best universities - but following that can easily lead to nepotism.

 

[hendrix]

Hey monogamy doesn't mean being with the same person all your life... Just that when you are with a person it is exclusive. I am very much a serial monogamist.

Yes.

This thread is about both things, really. The title should read "lifelong monogamy, child-rearing, exclusivity and non-exclusivity, relationships in general".

etc etc.

 

[Uppercut]

I understand why you might think that, but I'm coming to think that the only reasons for this prevalence stem from jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness.

You're just giving those feelings negative names so you can feel superior to people who experience them more strongly than you do.

 

[GIMH]

I understand why you might think that, but I'm coming to think that the only reasons for this prevalence stem from jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness, not actual love.

Moreover, what people want is not necessarily the way things should be. It might be human nature to want your kid to get the best job and get into the best universities - but following that can easily lead to nepotism.

I didn't say whether monogamy was right or wrong. Each to their own. for most, that will mean intended monogamy (because adultery happens)

 

[hendrix]

You're just giving it a negative name so you can feel superior to people who experience those emotions more strongly than you do.

Maybe.

 

[vcs]

Solution: Find chicks who dig Netflix?

Or Test cricket? We can dream..

 

[hendrix]

FWIW, I don't really know.

I've never been in a relationship where I was openly seeing other people. But I have felt very close to women I've been seeing while dating around. I pretty much had a don't-ask-don't-tell attitude at those points, but I don't think I would have minded if they were seeing other people.

The question is, would I have wanted to be in a relationship while that continued? It's really hard to tell, since the point most relationships are said to actually begin is with the exclusivity talk.

 

[vcs]

IMO a marriage is basically a partnership

You agree to help each others lives, and to work as a team where you got each ofhers back. Its you two vs the world. You can rely and depend on each other. Its more than love. Its trust. Its loyalty.

But people change. The person your marry will most likely not be the same person in 5, 10, 15 years time. Will they still be the person you made this agreement with all those years ago? Are there inherent characteristics of people that dont change with time, that you can identify and marry them for?

Idk.

Personally i've had so many heartbreaks ive begun to stop expecting anything out of the girls i date. People dont know what they want most of their time, and their feelings can change at the drop of a hat. Add in online dating and busy lives and people just have so many other options with what to do with their time that patching up a not-perfect relationship just isnt worth it to most folks. Ghost them and move on to the next one. Its kinda depressing.

I dont know if monogamy is the future of my generation. I think not.

Great post, hit the nail on the head with the bolded part. Won't get married unless I am sure me and the other person agree that we both want those things you've written. Don't want any short-term relationship either, way past that age now. Probably don't want kids either. I'm very happy single (and have been throughout my life) TBH, it will take someone very special (and obviously her to feel the same way about me) to change that.

 

[Uppercut]

Maybe.

Haha kudos for not biting at my bluntness.

Exclusivity preferences are just a part of sexuality. Someone saying "people who want monogamy are just being insecure/jealous/possessive" is a bit like when people accused gay people of "just wanting attention". It's offensive. And also just not true.