*Official* England Squad Thread

[BoyBrumby]

If he's fit it'll be King. Patently a class above every other option.

The more I think about it the more annoyed I'll get about Dawson (& Upson) going ahead of Sir Sulzeer tho. In every other position Fabio has gone for experience, but in (arguably) the most crucial he's gone for a bloke who Huddlestone was preferred to at centre back by 'Arry a couple of times this season.

 

[Uppercut]

If he's fit it'll be King. Patently a class above every other option.

The more I think about it the more annoyed I'll get about Dawson (& Upson) going ahead of Sir Sulzeer tho. In every other position Fabio has gone for experience, but in (arguably) the most crucial he's gone for a bloke who Huddlestone was preferred to at centre back by 'Arry a couple of times this season.

Fair, but if you go down that route then you're obliged to mention the fact that Wenger preferred Mikel Silvestre to Campbell in a Champions League quarter-final.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Fair, but if you go down that route then you're obliged to mention the fact that Wenger preferred Mikel Silvestre to Campbell in a Champions League quarter-final.

Even the best of us make mistakes and at least it's Silvestre's nominal position. Moreover M Wenger's fondness for French players a matter of note.

 

[Uppercut]

But the point is that I don't think it's correct to use bad players that have been preferred to someone in the past as evidence of how poor a player they are. Dawson was consistently excellent for the entire second half of the season.

 

[Matteh]

Should've been the ideal pretext to call up Mikel Arteta imo.

 

[BoyBrumby]

But the point is that I don't think it's correct to use bad players that have been preferred to someone in the past as evidence of how poor a player they are. Dawson was consistently excellent for the entire second half of the season.

"Excellent" wildly overstating the case. Has been solid. Like Upson; ok at his level but not international class. Has no remarkable facet to his game.

& my point wasn't so much about "bad" players, rather using players out of position in preference.

 

[Uppercut]

I definitely think "excellent" is fair, given what I saw of him.

 

[sledger]

Yeah, must say I was very impressed with what I saw of him as well.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Don't see it, tbh. He's a good pro in good form, but as I said before he lacks any exception aspect to his game. Not a physical specimen in the mode of a Terry, doesn't have Rio's touch or reading and lacks Campbell's sheer presence and bulk.

This year's Lescott as I think I may've suggested before.

 

[Ikki]

I'm with Brumby. Very good, but just not at that level.

 

[wpdavid]

I'm with Brumby. Very good, but just not at that level.

Which is true for most of the squad, tbh.

 

[Ikki]

Disagree, he is even below the level of most of the defenders bar someone like Upson.

I don't really get the English self-denigrating nature. As a neutral I think they have class players all round and are easily in the top handful of sides with the best players.

 

[Furball]

Disagree, he is even below the level of most of the defenders bar someone like Upson.

I don't really get the English self-denigrating nature. As a neutral I think they have class players all round and are easily in the top handful of sides with the best players.

No they're not.

Look at the Spanish squad and tell me that England possess players of that class, or with such depth. Ditto the Brazilian squad.

 

[Marcuss]

Still need to name another three squads like that if we're not in the "top handful".

 

[Furball]

Still need to name another three squads like that if we're not in the "top handful".

Argentina, arguably the French as well.

As far as my point goes, it doesn't really matter though, the gulf in class between Spain and England's squads is enormous.

 

[Marcuss]

Yeah I agree with that.

Just you disagreed with ikki so I was asking you to show why he was wrong in saying we're in the top 5 sides. So far you've said we're worse than 3, possibly 4.

 

[Ikki]

No they're not.

Look at the Spanish squad and tell me that England possess players of that class, or with such depth. Ditto the Brazilian squad.

The Spanish themselves think England are dangerous. Reina, Torres and even Casillas came out today saying they're amongst the favourites. If you were to go all the way in the WC you'd only play 7 games...whilst back-up and depth is important, it's not the same thing as having a large squad for a league season. England's 1st XI is up there with the best and not that far off Spain TBH. Certainly as good if not better than any team bar Spain.

 

[Furball]

The Spanish themselves think England are dangerous. Reina, Torres and even Casillas came out today saying they're amongst the favourites. If you were to go all the way in the WC you'd only play 7 games...whilst back-up and depth is important, it's not the same thing as having a large squad for a league season. England's 1st XI is up there with the best and not that far off Spain TBH. Certainly as good if not better than any team bar Spain.

One element of winning a tournament like the World Cup is luck, you need your best players to stay injury free for a month. On the back of a tough, long European season, it is so easy to pick up a little niggle that keeps you out for 2-3 weeks - in the context of a regular club season, that's nothing. In an international tournament? That's you out for almost half of it, with the struggle to gel in with the rest of the side once you recover. Wipe out Xabi Alonso, Cesc, Xavi and Andres Iniesta from Spain's midfield - the most important part of your side - and Spain still have the luxury of players like Marcos Senna, Sergio Busquets and Mikel Arteta. Goalkeeping crisis? Spain's 3rd choice keeper, who has never been capped, happens to be the first choice keeper for the best side in the world, and is one of the best keepers in Europe. England have 2 keepers who play for bottom of the table sides, (they're not good enough for the top sides) and a keeper who has played 1 season of regular first team football.

You also need to be able to resort to a plan B when plan A isn't working. Looking at England's squad, Capello will be limited to throwing on SWP or Emile Heskey as a plan B - not great. El Diego on the other hand is likely to be able to look at his bench and take his pick from Diego Milito, Carlos Tevez, or Kun Aguero.

You need matchwinners - your goalkeepers and strikers. Wayne Rooney excepted, England's options here are utterly pathetic.

 

[Scaly piscine]

One element of winning a tournament like the World Cup is luck, you need your best players to stay injury free for a month. On the back of a tough, long European season, it is so easy to pick up a little niggle that keeps you out for 2-3 weeks - in the context of a regular club season, that's nothing. In an international tournament? That's you out for almost half of it, with the struggle to gel in with the rest of the side once you recover. Wipe out Xabi Alonso, Cesc, Xavi and Andres Iniesta from Spain's midfield - the most important part of your side - and Spain still have the luxury of players like Marcos Senna, Sergio Busquets and Mikel Arteta. Goalkeeping crisis? Spain's 3rd choice keeper, who has never been capped, happens to be the first choice keeper for the best side in the world, and is one of the best keepers in Europe. England have 2 keepers who play for bottom of the table sides, (they're not good enough for the top sides) and a keeper who has played 1 season of regular first team football.

You also need to be able to resort to a plan B when plan A isn't working. Looking at England's squad, Capello will be limited to throwing on SWP or Emile Heskey as a plan B - not great. El Diego on the other hand is likely to be able to look at his bench and take his pick from Diego Milito, Carlos Tevez, or Kun Aguero.

You need matchwinners - your goalkeepers and strikers. Wayne Rooney excepted, England's options here are utterly pathetic.

Have you ever actually followed World Cups in the past?

Notice how many have simply been ground out by a decent to good side with a strong team and work ethic?

Not many games are won on paper.

I think England will go 4-5-1 in the knock-out stages and will be tough to beat if they do that. Personally their squad number implied 4-4-2 is very attacking and would be a bit too open given their central defence isn't that strong - one mistake and teams will be through as happened a few times in the friendlies.

 

[wpdavid]

Have you ever actually followed World Cups in the past?

Notice how many have simply been ground out by a decent to good side with a strong team and work ethic?

Not many games are won on paper.

I think England will go 4-5-1 in the knock-out stages and will be tough to beat if they do that. Personally their squad number implied 4-4-2 is very attacking and would be a bit too open given their central defence isn't that strong - one mistake and teams will be through as happened a few times in the friendlies.

Interesting thought about 4-5-1. It makes sense given the players available. I'd only differ with you that if Capello agrees, he might as well play that way from the start rather than hoist a new formation of the players in the knock-out stages.