Regarding Communism

[Spark]

A lot of welfare programs were not clamoured for and simply came about because many countries - particularly in the West - became wealthy which created a political incentive to acquire votes by divvying up the loot. That's why people should be wary of politicians like Lyndon Johnson or Bernie Sanders as they create a narrative where people lose sense and follow their envy. It's also the great flaw of democracy.

I have more reason to hate LBJ than most but his domestic policies were by far the best things he did. But no, this historical analysis isn't correct either; no one would call the UK in 1945 or indeed the rest of continental Europe at the same time "rich countries". Destroyed countries with a very strong sense of national identity and higher-than-normal acceptance of centralised control of social affairs, maybe, but these were not prosperous countries by any stretch of the imagination. Socialised healthcare doesn't seem a big deal when you still have rationing.

 

[GIMH]

The welfare state in the U.K. was created in the early 20th century by the Liberal party. NHS was not the beginning of it.

 

[Ikki]

TBH can't comment so much on UK but Sweden and USA are examples of liberty and prosperity leading to wealth as a precursor to a welfare state. Generally, I'd be wary of attributing sweeping grass root needs to these programs rather than politicking for votes. I remember Friedman having a lecture basically debunking a lot of this (for the USA).

 

[GIMH]

Having read back I can see I slightly misinterpreted spark as I don't think he was suggesting there was no welfare before 1945, tbf. But yeah the early 20th century was when a lot of welfare was introduced, pre-WW1 so fairly affluent times.

 

[Furball]

The welfare state in the U.K. was created in the early 20th century by the Liberal party. NHS was not the beginning of it.

The welfare state was created because the laissez-faire model of capitalism that was followed in the 19th century meant that the nation wasn't fit for purpose.

I can't remember the figure, but the army had to reject loads of volunteers for the Boer War because the nation's youth were simply not in a good enough condition to go off and fight a war. That was when you got the likes of free school meals being introduced, because if the working classes were undernourished and in a poor condition physically, it doesn't bode well for the future of the nation when you've got an empire that covers a quarter of the globe and you've got a near neighbour (Germany) who will probably need a bit of a slap in the near future.

Housing in the early 20th century in Britain was an absolute ****ing disgrace as well.

 

[Spark]

Having read back I can see I slightly misinterpreted spark as I don't think he was suggesting there was no welfare before 1945, tbf. But yeah the early 20th century was when a lot of welfare was introduced, pre-WW1 so fairly affluent times.

I actually had late-19th century Germany in mind; Bismarck's decision to introduce pensions to keep his suddenly-massive army in line.