Why Brazil will not win the WC

[Steulen]

So I was watching the Champions League final this week, and I realized that while Ronaldinho is definitely an awesome player he is also a liability. He was clearly hell-bent on being the star of the show and as a result Barcelona's pace was slowed down considerably and their play was one-dimensional.

Something similar will happen in the WC, and the Dire Krauts will profit.

 

[Barney Rubble]

So I was watching the Champions League final this week, and I realized that while Ronaldinho is definitely an awesome player he is also a liability. He was clearly hell-bent on being the star of the show and as a result Barcelona's pace was slowed down considerably and their play was one-dimensional.

Something similar will happen in the WC, and the Dire Krauts will profit.

Difference between Barcelona and Brazil is that with Barca, Ronaldinho is the man through whom the majority of their attacking play goes at some point. With Brazil, they can easily rip you apart in a few seconds while Ronaldinho's still 50 yards away.

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

Agreed with both statements, particularly Matt's though.

There are countless times when a simple 10 yard ball will be effective enough, but Ronaldinho tries something special and often, on the edge of a crowded box, it doesn't come off.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Great ability & all, but I can't help but hate the buck-toothed client. It really jars me off that he hasn't had the good grace to hold his hands up & say "Fair play, I fluked it in against England in 2002. I just punted up an alehouse ball & got jammy.", but, oh no, it's a "falling leaf" which, you note, he's never done before or since.

I personally think Larsson embarrassed him. In his 20 minutes on the pitch he showed the virtue of simplicity & basically won Barca the game.

 

[TT Boy]

Great ability & all, but I can't help but hate the buck-toothed client. It really jars me off that he hasn't had the good grace to hold his hands up & say "Fair play, I fluked it in against England in 2002. I just punted up an alehouse ball & got jammy.", but, oh no, it's a "falling leaf" which, you note, he's never done before or since.

I personally think Larsson embarrassed him. In his 20 minutes on the pitch he showed the virtue of simplicity & basically won Barca the game.

Embarrassed is rather strong word, he performed better than Ronaldinho but Thiago Motta, yes Motta, a guy famed for **** hair and no nonsense tackling came off the bench a couple of months ago against (I believe) Malaga and completely destroyed them. Whilst Eto, Ronaldinho and co. watched on helplessly.

Such instances do not indicate much on the grander scheme of things because for over forty games who has been the star and most consistent player at Barcelona, some may argue Samuel Eto or even Andres Iniesta but Ronaldinho for me has been the shining light once again. He was below par, one game, I think such a player is entitled to such a game. Questions of bottling it and constant under performing on the big stage could not be applied to such a player, I know no one has suggested such a thing but what if he was his usual brilliant self, would such a post be created, I doubt it. Pretty hard to be so influential when a team is having 9 men constantly behind the ball as well.

Most say though it is rather ironic that Larsson, who most people on this forum labelled a second rate striker, who only scored against tin pot Scottish teams would be the difference.

 

[TT Boy]

Also in regard to Barcelona’s pace of football, anyone familiar with La Liga would know they do not play breathtakingly quick football. They are ruthlessly quick to spot an opening, evident in Ronaldinho’s defensive splitting pass to set up Eto’s earlier chance however they do take there time to build pressure, not just lump and pray like so many teams who are trailing.

I will also add Barcelona have been pretty much one dimensional for a couple of seasons now, everyone knew even Wenger that Barcelona will only score through the middle so Ronaldinho's performance really did not effect Barcelona’s style or pace of the game, did not help but did not hinder also.

You have to consider also that Ronaldinho’s role for Brazil is rather more different, positional. (though both teams occasionally play at that casual almost labouring pace) not with more added reasonability I give you that but unlike Barcelona who usually play just the one, Brazil’s midfield is aided with the inclusion of both hatchet man Emerson and Gilberto Silva who will do most the Donkey work and cover far more ground than Barcelona’s Rafael Márquez or Edmílson do.

Brazil's major problem for me going into such a tournament is the age and form of it's wing backs and Adriano, Ronaldo's current fitness (weight).

 

[BoyBrumby]

Embarrassed is rather strong word, he performed better than Ronaldinho but Thiago Motta, yes Motta, a guy famed for **** hair and no nonsense tackling came off the bench a couple of months ago against (I believe) Malaga and completely destroyed them. Whilst Eto, Ronaldinho and co. watched on helplessly.

Such instances do not indicate much on the grander scheme of things because for over forty games who has been the star and most consistent player at Barcelona, some may argue Samuel Eto or even Andres Iniesta but Ronaldinho for me has been the shining light once again. He was below par, one game, I think such a player is entitled to such a game. Questions of bottling it and constant under performing on the big stage could not be applied to such a player, I know no one has suggested such a thing but what if he was his usual brilliant self, would such a post be created, I doubt it. Pretty hard to be so influential when a team is having 9 men constantly behind the ball as well.

Most say though it is rather ironic that Larsson, who most people on this forum labelled a second rate striker, who only scored against tin pot Scottish teams would be the difference.

Well this is the argument that some use against Sir Terence: that he doesn't stand up when the chips are down. For the "best player in the world" (UEFA ™) Ronaldinho tried to rifle through his undoubtedly huge box of tricks but came up short. He took every free-kick Barca were awarded within even vaguely shootable range and each one was pretty toilet.

As for a team shoving 9 men behind the ball, does anyone really think Brazil are going to be faced with any opponents who're going to try to play them off the park? Nah, of course not. All their opponents are going to have their own variation of containment. Frankly if he's unable to to significantly influence a game vs 10 men with the Goalkeeping equivalent of a panic attack behind them, I think it doesn't bode well.

 

[33/3from3.3]

Interesting thread
But no i think the depth of skill in the Brazillian squad is to immense for one player to become a liability
If one Brazil player has a bad game 3 will have a good one

 

[Craig]

Also in regard to Barcelona’s pace of football, anyone familiar with La Liga would know they do not play breathtakingly quick football. They are ruthlessly quick to spot an opening, evident in Ronaldinho’s defensive splitting pass to set up Eto’s earlier chance however they do take there time to build pressure, not just lump and pray like so many teams who are trailing.

I will also add Barcelona have been pretty much one dimensional for a couple of seasons now, everyone knew even Wenger that Barcelona will only score through the middle so Ronaldinho's performance really did not effect Barcelona’s style or pace of the game, did not help but did not hinder also.

You have to consider also that Ronaldinho’s role for Brazil is rather more different, positional. (though both teams occasionally play at that casual almost labouring pace) not with more added reasonability I give you that but unlike Barcelona who usually play just the one, Brazil’s midfield is aided with the inclusion of both hatchet man Emerson and Gilberto Silva who will do most the Donkey work and cover far more ground than Barcelona’s Rafael Márquez or Edmílson do.

Brazil's major problem for me going into such a tournament is the age and form of it's wing backs and Adriano, Ronaldo's current fitness (weight).

Well all you need to do is keep Ronaldo away from the local KFC, get Adriano is missus back and everything is sorted between those two.

But is it me or is their other wing back (or is he a right winger) Cicinho is a little bit over-rated?

 

[TT Boy]

Well all you need to do is keep Ronaldo away from the local KFC, get Adriano is missus back and everything is sorted between those two.

But is it me or is their other wing back (or is he a right winger) Cicinho is a little bit over-rated?

Cicinho as a defender for sure, his pretty much useless and he can not tackle but I take him any day of the week over Cafu, not only because he is fitter but he can actually pass when he gets into the last third. Surprised Brazil did not select Daniel Alves of FC Sevilla, had a fantastic year and looks a really exciting talent but possibly Alves is harbouring hopes of representing Spain instead.

 

[TT Boy]

Interesting thread
But no i think the depth of skill in the Brazillian squad is to immense for one player to become a liability
If one Brazil player has a bad game 3 will have a good one

Exactly, if Ronaldinho has a mediocre game expect Kaka and co. to astound. It would be naive of teams to think that by stopping Ronaldinho you will stop Brazil.

 

[Craig]

Cicinho as a defender for sure, his pretty much useless and he can not tackle but I take him any day of the week over Cafu, not only because he is fitter but he can actually pass when he gets into the last third. Surprised Brazil did not select Daniel Alves of FC Sevilla, had a fantastic year and looks a really exciting talent but possibly Alves is harbouring hopes of representing Spain instead.

Yeah I would agree, it wouldn't surprise me if Cicinho got in because he happens to play for Real Madrid, and I did watch his last game against Sevilla where he just wanted to shoot hopeless shots on goal instead of passing to somebody who had a better chance.

If indeed Alves does choose to play for Spain, it would certaintly give them great depth in defence - however his omission is hardly surprising given the form of the other coaches leaving out guys who should be there.

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

Well all you need to do is keep Ronaldo away from the local KFC, get Adriano is missus back and everything is sorted between those two.

But is it me or is their other wing back (or is he a right winger) Cicinho is a little bit over-rated?

Cicinho is really a right winger, can't defend at all. How Madrid can play him and Roberto Carlos in the same side is beyond me.

I'd still go for Cafu, personally. He's got a bit of common sense about him and can defend a bit as well.

 

[Steulen]

Exactly, if Ronaldinho has a mediocre game expect Kaka and co. to astound. It would be naive of teams to think that by stopping Ronaldinho you will stop Brazil.

Now that's what I dispute. I think Ronaldinho showed in the Champions league Final that he wants to be the centre of things and does not have the maturity / good sense to fall back to a more team-serving approach when it's not his day. More in general, Brazil might, and for the sake of this thread WILL, suffer from Galacticitis, an affliction where an ingrained sense of superiority is responsible for not achieving your goals.

 

[cpr]

Now y'see, i'd argue against this 'Galacticitis' thing.

Club level, definatly. Look at Real Madrid (yeah i know goofy plays for Barca), they are the 'Galactico's', and yes most of them DO play for themselves. Wasnt always the case. But now most of them have won everything on offer twice over, and they are playing for themselves, for their pride. The Frenchman wants to outshine the Brit. The Brazilian wants to score more than the spaniard. And its all gone ****ies up.

But at international level, i dont think the galactico feeling is there. There is a far stronger cameradeship than at club level (note, thats for every country bar England. Were just stubborn). The Brazilians want to succeed together, and the records say they usually do. At club level Ronaldinho is more likely to shoot at the end of his jinking run than set up E'too, but at international level i reckon he'll be more willing to lay off to Ronaldo (wasnt that the exact way they got one against us in 2002?)

 

[steds]

More in general, Brazil might, and for the sake of this thread WILL, suffer from Galacticitis, an affliction where an ingrained sense of superiority is responsible for not achieving your goals.

Like they have oh so many times in the past.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I thought you were simply going to say:

"Because Australia will beat them"

 

[Steulen]

I thought you were simply going to say:

"Because Australia will beat them"

That too...Guus Hiddink, the real Galactico

 

[Steulen]

Like they have oh so many times in the past.

I'm not talking about some generic Brazilian trait, it's just about the current crop.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Like they have oh so many times in the past.

TBF they went 24 years between 1970-1994 without a win & there's a perception that they won in the US with a more traditionally rigid "European" style of game; Dunga was probably the most crucial player in that tournament.