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CW decides the 32 best test* opening batsmen of all time - The countdown thread!
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
honestbharani
Well-known member
Except you did not..
TheJediBrah
Well-known member
stephen was specifically responding to a comment saying that Lawry didn't have as many tough knocks, you need to take context into account
mr_mister
Well-known member
#14: W.G Grace (106 points)
Lists featured on: 11/29
Top 5 finishes: 6
Highest finish: 1st (1)
And here's a spanner in the works. WG, the good doctor. The jump from Lawry's 69 points to Grace's 106 is the bigges jump of the list thus far. And yet Grace only featured on 11 lists, less than quite a few people ranked lower than him. But those who rate him seem to really rate him and he cracked 6 top 5's and even came 1st on one. Much like another man who appears later on this list, Grace's test exploits of course weren't enormous but his first class output is what he is remembered for and those who do rank him on their lists tend to place him quite high.
Grace played 44 seasons of first class cricket and was already nearly past his prime when he played his first test in 1880. He got 152 in his first test innings and in his 8th test 170 - already 38 years old by this stage. In between these innings there wasn't a single 50 though he did grab 5 of those in his final 14 tests/12 years as a test cricketer. Arthur Shrewsbury, a peer of Grace and someone who featured in quite a few tests with him, fared slightly better and averaged 35 with 3 tons.
Cricket was a bowling-friendly game in this era of uncovered pitches and Grace's test average of 32 clearly needs a lot of context to be understood even before you consider he was already getting past his prime by the time test cricket was invented.
His FC average of 39 is better but even this is hurt by playing FC cricket 'til he was 60. What a lot of people praise Grace for was due to how far ahead of the chasing pack during his long peak, much like Bradman. I can't be bothered digging up extensive FC stats but in the 1871 season he averaged 78 while the second best batsman averaged 39. He hit 2739 runs while the next best managed 1068. This was the first season 2000 runs were ever passed and he cleared it by miles. He had more than a few seasons with similar results to this. He hit nearly 900 runs in 3 consecutive innings during 1876(including 2 triples) in a season when again only one other batsman cracked 1000 runs. These scores were apparently against super strong bowling attacks.
Overarm bowling came in around the time Grace's career launched so his career synced up with the early beginnings of modern cricket. Whatever calibre the batting and bowling was in this time - and of course I can only guess - Grace was still far ahead of all the other blokes struggling to get consistent runs on sticky wickets with their unrefined techniques.
Grace's approach to batting was quite revolutionary. Ranji stated he developed most of the techniques of modern batting and was the 'bible of batsmanship'. Before Grace batsman would either focus on front-foot or back-foot play and pick a certain stroke to master and use that over and over again. Grace's style included learning and utilising all strokes off both the front and back foot. His preferred stroke was only deemed by the appropriate one to play to a particular ball.
He's essentially the George Washington to Bradman's Abe Lincoln. He's clearly hard to rate on a list like this, you could argue he shouldn't be on it at all or he should be number 1. But he lands here at 14.
Lists featured on: 11/29
Top 5 finishes: 6
Highest finish: 1st (1)
And here's a spanner in the works. WG, the good doctor. The jump from Lawry's 69 points to Grace's 106 is the bigges jump of the list thus far. And yet Grace only featured on 11 lists, less than quite a few people ranked lower than him. But those who rate him seem to really rate him and he cracked 6 top 5's and even came 1st on one. Much like another man who appears later on this list, Grace's test exploits of course weren't enormous but his first class output is what he is remembered for and those who do rank him on their lists tend to place him quite high.
Grace played 44 seasons of first class cricket and was already nearly past his prime when he played his first test in 1880. He got 152 in his first test innings and in his 8th test 170 - already 38 years old by this stage. In between these innings there wasn't a single 50 though he did grab 5 of those in his final 14 tests/12 years as a test cricketer. Arthur Shrewsbury, a peer of Grace and someone who featured in quite a few tests with him, fared slightly better and averaged 35 with 3 tons.
Cricket was a bowling-friendly game in this era of uncovered pitches and Grace's test average of 32 clearly needs a lot of context to be understood even before you consider he was already getting past his prime by the time test cricket was invented.
His FC average of 39 is better but even this is hurt by playing FC cricket 'til he was 60. What a lot of people praise Grace for was due to how far ahead of the chasing pack during his long peak, much like Bradman. I can't be bothered digging up extensive FC stats but in the 1871 season he averaged 78 while the second best batsman averaged 39. He hit 2739 runs while the next best managed 1068. This was the first season 2000 runs were ever passed and he cleared it by miles. He had more than a few seasons with similar results to this. He hit nearly 900 runs in 3 consecutive innings during 1876(including 2 triples) in a season when again only one other batsman cracked 1000 runs. These scores were apparently against super strong bowling attacks.
Overarm bowling came in around the time Grace's career launched so his career synced up with the early beginnings of modern cricket. Whatever calibre the batting and bowling was in this time - and of course I can only guess - Grace was still far ahead of all the other blokes struggling to get consistent runs on sticky wickets with their unrefined techniques.
Grace's approach to batting was quite revolutionary. Ranji stated he developed most of the techniques of modern batting and was the 'bible of batsmanship'. Before Grace batsman would either focus on front-foot or back-foot play and pick a certain stroke to master and use that over and over again. Grace's style included learning and utilising all strokes off both the front and back foot. His preferred stroke was only deemed by the appropriate one to play to a particular ball.
He's essentially the George Washington to Bradman's Abe Lincoln. He's clearly hard to rate on a list like this, you could argue he shouldn't be on it at all or he should be number 1. But he lands here at 14.
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If we are looking at things in a purely relative sense, he has Bradman beat pretty comfortably in FC IMO.
Line and Length
Well-known member
A surprise but not a disGrace! It's impossible to compare eras but, in a century's time, the Doctor will still be spoken of highly for his contributions to the game.
mr_mister
Well-known member
#13: Arthur Morris (109 points)
Lists featured on: 18/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 4th (1)
Arthur Morris featured on Bradman's ATG XI. He considered him the best left handed opener of all time. He actually nearly went stroke for stroke for Bradman during their brief test career overlap together.
In his 15 post war tests Bradman hit 1903 runs @ 105 with 8 centuries and 5 fifties.
In 14 tests during this time Morris hit 1408 runs @ 74 with 7 centuries and 4 fifties.
A decent gap in average and runs still(Bradman had 2 more not-outs fwiw and Morris didn't have any double centuries) but its certainly notable.
When you restrict it to just ashes matches(there was an India series in between two ashes series) it really becomes really interesting.
In the 46/47 ashes Bradman hit 680 runs @ 97 with 2 hundreds and 3 fifties.
Morris - 503 runs @ 72 with 3 hundreds and 1 fifty.
In the 1948 invincibles series Bradman only managed 508 runs @ 73 with 2 hundreds and 1 fifty
Morris however - 696 runs @ 87 with 3 hundreds and 3 fifties.
Yes, Bradman was an old man and Morris in his prime but I think Morris can lay claim to being the only Australian player to keep up with him across multiple ashes series once Bradman established himself as the GOAT in 1930.
Morris was once asked where he was when Bradman scored his famous final innings 4 ball duck. 'At the other end scoring 196' was his reply. In the previous match it was 182 as Bradman scored 173 and they put on a 301 run stand. Bradman has great cause to rate him as the one of the best openers he ever saw.
Much like many other players who were bestowed this title after an early career purple patch, Morris must have been dubbed the next Bradman(or at least the next Hobbs) when after 23 tests he had already claimed 10 test centuries and an average of 62. It fell steeply during the 50s and he ended up finishing with only 12 centuries from 46 appearances and an average of 46. Against England he still managed 8 tons from 24 matches and an average above 50 so he could still hold his head high up in that regard. His India and South African records were respectable enough but against the Windies from 8 matches featuring Valentine and Ramadhin he only averaged 32. Once he lost Sid Barnes as his opening partner as well as Bradman as his 1st drop support Morris was never the same. That could be coincidence though it has been said Barnes was his favourite opening partner and I also assume he enjoyed batting with Bradman.
6 of Morris's 12 test tons were 150+ scores with one, his best, being turned into 206. So while he wasn't pulling out the really, really big tons he wasn't exactly throwing his wicket away after reaching three figures either.
He was said to be a 'compact' left hander with an aggressive attacking technique though his defensive game was a little unorthodox. H would shuffled across his stumps to play back at the ball. This created a theory around him that he was vulnerable to LBWs and being bowled leg stump. His shots of choice were his cover droves and hooking.
Morris actually lost some prime run getting years due to WW2. In late 1940 in his first class debut at only 18 he scored a ton in each innings. Though he was only 24 years old when he got to play his first test - questions still must be posed about how much damage he could have done had he got to play them between 1941-46. As they will also be asked of a player who will appear closer to the top of this list.
Lists featured on: 18/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 4th (1)
Arthur Morris featured on Bradman's ATG XI. He considered him the best left handed opener of all time. He actually nearly went stroke for stroke for Bradman during their brief test career overlap together.
In his 15 post war tests Bradman hit 1903 runs @ 105 with 8 centuries and 5 fifties.
In 14 tests during this time Morris hit 1408 runs @ 74 with 7 centuries and 4 fifties.
A decent gap in average and runs still(Bradman had 2 more not-outs fwiw and Morris didn't have any double centuries) but its certainly notable.
When you restrict it to just ashes matches(there was an India series in between two ashes series) it really becomes really interesting.
In the 46/47 ashes Bradman hit 680 runs @ 97 with 2 hundreds and 3 fifties.
Morris - 503 runs @ 72 with 3 hundreds and 1 fifty.
In the 1948 invincibles series Bradman only managed 508 runs @ 73 with 2 hundreds and 1 fifty
Morris however - 696 runs @ 87 with 3 hundreds and 3 fifties.
Yes, Bradman was an old man and Morris in his prime but I think Morris can lay claim to being the only Australian player to keep up with him across multiple ashes series once Bradman established himself as the GOAT in 1930.
Morris was once asked where he was when Bradman scored his famous final innings 4 ball duck. 'At the other end scoring 196' was his reply. In the previous match it was 182 as Bradman scored 173 and they put on a 301 run stand. Bradman has great cause to rate him as the one of the best openers he ever saw.
Much like many other players who were bestowed this title after an early career purple patch, Morris must have been dubbed the next Bradman(or at least the next Hobbs) when after 23 tests he had already claimed 10 test centuries and an average of 62. It fell steeply during the 50s and he ended up finishing with only 12 centuries from 46 appearances and an average of 46. Against England he still managed 8 tons from 24 matches and an average above 50 so he could still hold his head high up in that regard. His India and South African records were respectable enough but against the Windies from 8 matches featuring Valentine and Ramadhin he only averaged 32. Once he lost Sid Barnes as his opening partner as well as Bradman as his 1st drop support Morris was never the same. That could be coincidence though it has been said Barnes was his favourite opening partner and I also assume he enjoyed batting with Bradman.
6 of Morris's 12 test tons were 150+ scores with one, his best, being turned into 206. So while he wasn't pulling out the really, really big tons he wasn't exactly throwing his wicket away after reaching three figures either.
He was said to be a 'compact' left hander with an aggressive attacking technique though his defensive game was a little unorthodox. H would shuffled across his stumps to play back at the ball. This created a theory around him that he was vulnerable to LBWs and being bowled leg stump. His shots of choice were his cover droves and hooking.
Morris actually lost some prime run getting years due to WW2. In late 1940 in his first class debut at only 18 he scored a ton in each innings. Though he was only 24 years old when he got to play his first test - questions still must be posed about how much damage he could have done had he got to play them between 1941-46. As they will also be asked of a player who will appear closer to the top of this list.
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TheJediBrah
Well-known member
lol righto
mr_mister
Well-known member
#12: Matt Hayden (128 points)
Lists featured on: 18/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 1st (1)
Big Haydos is the second batsman who manged to end up 1st on a list. Well done. The image I chose is quite nostalgic for me. I remember as a 10 year old who didn't have foxtel briefly watching the back end of this innings at a friend's house(who did have foxtel). I'd never recalled seeing a double century scored before in 3 years of watching cricket - as I mainly just got to watch the Aussie summer each year. I do recall Waugh's 199 and Ponting's 197, and had a 1997 ashes video highlights so I knew about Elliott's 199 too. Even Lara's 182 stuck in my memory. Though Langer apparently got a 223 in the final test of the 99/00 summer, I don't remember watching it or remembering much about it. Might have been bored of cricket by the 6th aussie win of the summer, haha. Or maybe just I never liked Langer. Either way this particular knock was big for me. It was big for Hayden too.
For me it was big because I barely knew much about Hayden. I knew of him of course because I was an absolute cricket geek but I preferred Matthew Elliott and Michael Slater as my openers. I also liked watching plucky fringe players come in and do well(I liked Blewett a lot) but this caught me by surprise - Hayden being the aussie to hit 200 before I got to see a Waugh, Slater or Ponting do it. If I had managed to catch a single knock of Haydens in the previous 2 tests though I wouldn't have been so shocked! Certainly as Laxman hit his 280 as well around this time >_>
Anyway on to Hayden. He came into this India series averaging 24 from 13 tests. India is not traditionally a place where touring opening batsman come to resurrect dying careers but Hayden managed to leave the series now averaging 40 from 16 tests. Much like Rohit did recently, he turned a career average from terrible to respectable overnight. Makes you think what Bevan could have done with a cheeky home series against India or WI around 2000 >_> Hayden's career til that point, as recently discussed by several people on here, wasn't great. Against the best bowlers he ever faced, peak Donald and Ambrose - he more or less failed. He did scrape his maiden ton, 125 in the 96/97 home series against the WI but in his other 4 digs that summer only hit 52 runs including 2 ducks. So he still wasn't convincing or at least had shown no indication of the ridiculous career he would eventually achieve. And as we all know there was no shortage of competition for batting spots in the side around this time. This was truly Hayden's last chance and he grabbed it with both hands and both feet too.
After this crazy Indian series where he hit 500+ runs in 3 tests with a double ton, a regular century and a 97, Hayden came back to earth a bit in the '01 ashes and probably made a lot of doubters think that the Indian series had been a fluke. But he got a decent score in the final dead rubber at the Oval, a ton in the opening test of the aussie summer against NZ and he was away! He scored 4 tons in 4 consecutive tests against SA home and away in late '01/early 02 and then a 96 in the fifth. Donald now was a little older but he was still Allan Donald and Hayden exacted sweet revenge for failing against him in the '90s.
There was the 119 in Pakistan, scored in 50 degree heat in a match where no other played passed 50 and Pakistan barely managed to scrape that number in both of their innings as a team. There was the 380 of course against a weak Zim attack, but it was still 380. Hayden broke Lara's record briefly and was king of the world.
From that second career ton against India in 2001, five years after his first, to his final test ton in 2008 against the same opponent at home before an end of career tailing away, Hayden hit 29 centuries in 81 matches and averaged 58 during this period. An insane return for an opener and one of the best extended purple patches ever seen. Even though this makes up basically 80% of his test career, his poor beginning and end meant his career record of 103 tests, 30 tons and average of 50 is considerably more grounded. Still, it's enough to pop him here at 12th! Well done to the big Queenslander. Whatever people say about him feasting on weak attacks he still managed to average over 40 against every nation except for Bangladesh and NZ which is pretty random. They were arguably the 2 weakest attacks of his era. And his home average is 16 points higher than his away average, but 57 is pretty damn high for an opener and 41 was certainly considered respectable enough for Mark Taylor in the decade prior. How much did the reduction of ATG bowlers in the 2000s affect things? It's too hard to say and as I think Flem? mentioned a month or so ago people can twist stats to do to their bidding every which way so I'll just leave it at that... for once.
Lists featured on: 18/29
Top 5 finishes: 1
Highest finish: 1st (1)
Big Haydos is the second batsman who manged to end up 1st on a list. Well done. The image I chose is quite nostalgic for me. I remember as a 10 year old who didn't have foxtel briefly watching the back end of this innings at a friend's house(who did have foxtel). I'd never recalled seeing a double century scored before in 3 years of watching cricket - as I mainly just got to watch the Aussie summer each year. I do recall Waugh's 199 and Ponting's 197, and had a 1997 ashes video highlights so I knew about Elliott's 199 too. Even Lara's 182 stuck in my memory. Though Langer apparently got a 223 in the final test of the 99/00 summer, I don't remember watching it or remembering much about it. Might have been bored of cricket by the 6th aussie win of the summer, haha. Or maybe just I never liked Langer. Either way this particular knock was big for me. It was big for Hayden too.
For me it was big because I barely knew much about Hayden. I knew of him of course because I was an absolute cricket geek but I preferred Matthew Elliott and Michael Slater as my openers. I also liked watching plucky fringe players come in and do well(I liked Blewett a lot) but this caught me by surprise - Hayden being the aussie to hit 200 before I got to see a Waugh, Slater or Ponting do it. If I had managed to catch a single knock of Haydens in the previous 2 tests though I wouldn't have been so shocked! Certainly as Laxman hit his 280 as well around this time >_>
Anyway on to Hayden. He came into this India series averaging 24 from 13 tests. India is not traditionally a place where touring opening batsman come to resurrect dying careers but Hayden managed to leave the series now averaging 40 from 16 tests. Much like Rohit did recently, he turned a career average from terrible to respectable overnight. Makes you think what Bevan could have done with a cheeky home series against India or WI around 2000 >_> Hayden's career til that point, as recently discussed by several people on here, wasn't great. Against the best bowlers he ever faced, peak Donald and Ambrose - he more or less failed. He did scrape his maiden ton, 125 in the 96/97 home series against the WI but in his other 4 digs that summer only hit 52 runs including 2 ducks. So he still wasn't convincing or at least had shown no indication of the ridiculous career he would eventually achieve. And as we all know there was no shortage of competition for batting spots in the side around this time. This was truly Hayden's last chance and he grabbed it with both hands and both feet too.
After this crazy Indian series where he hit 500+ runs in 3 tests with a double ton, a regular century and a 97, Hayden came back to earth a bit in the '01 ashes and probably made a lot of doubters think that the Indian series had been a fluke. But he got a decent score in the final dead rubber at the Oval, a ton in the opening test of the aussie summer against NZ and he was away! He scored 4 tons in 4 consecutive tests against SA home and away in late '01/early 02 and then a 96 in the fifth. Donald now was a little older but he was still Allan Donald and Hayden exacted sweet revenge for failing against him in the '90s.
There was the 119 in Pakistan, scored in 50 degree heat in a match where no other played passed 50 and Pakistan barely managed to scrape that number in both of their innings as a team. There was the 380 of course against a weak Zim attack, but it was still 380. Hayden broke Lara's record briefly and was king of the world.
From that second career ton against India in 2001, five years after his first, to his final test ton in 2008 against the same opponent at home before an end of career tailing away, Hayden hit 29 centuries in 81 matches and averaged 58 during this period. An insane return for an opener and one of the best extended purple patches ever seen. Even though this makes up basically 80% of his test career, his poor beginning and end meant his career record of 103 tests, 30 tons and average of 50 is considerably more grounded. Still, it's enough to pop him here at 12th! Well done to the big Queenslander. Whatever people say about him feasting on weak attacks he still managed to average over 40 against every nation except for Bangladesh and NZ which is pretty random. They were arguably the 2 weakest attacks of his era. And his home average is 16 points higher than his away average, but 57 is pretty damn high for an opener and 41 was certainly considered respectable enough for Mark Taylor in the decade prior. How much did the reduction of ATG bowlers in the 2000s affect things? It's too hard to say and as I think Flem? mentioned a month or so ago people can twist stats to do to their bidding every which way so I'll just leave it at that... for once.
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