Mosul falls, MF argues, Hendrix looks gr8

[Agent Nationaux]

Mosul in Iraq has fallen to the extremists. What a waste this Iraq war has been, hundreds of thousands dead and it's gotten worse. What was the point.

The good old US did the same thing in Afghanistan when they left the country to the Mujahiddin after the Soviets left.

Iraq city of Mosul falls into hands of ISIS jihadists after police, army abandon posts - CBS News

America really needs to change it's policy to fight against the extremists and not hand over land to them.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

So, what's your solution to this AN? Obviously instead of turning back the clock and doing things differently in the first place. What can be done now? What should be done now?

 

[sledger]

So, what's your solution to this AN? Obviously instead of turning back the clock and doing things differently in the first place. What can be done now? What should be done now?

This ought to be good.

 

[watson]

If the entire Midde East were to embrace atheism and then convert every Synagogue, Church, and Mosque into a Museum then the problem would be solved I think. And while that's happening the Old City of Jerusalem should be handed over to the UN who would then administer it as a space that is both Secular and Stateless.

That should kick the thread along.

 

[smalishah84]

AN why do you think the us invade iraq in the first place?

 

[Agent Nationaux]

If the entire Midde East were to embrace atheism and then convert every Synagogue, Church, and Mosque into a Museum then the problem would be solved I think. And while that's happening the Old City of Jerusalem should be handed over to the UN who would then administer it as a space that is both Secular and Stateless.

That should kick the thread along.

So more troops committed there?

Will you be happy for Australian troops to be sent over and fight the war against religion?

I don't know Heath, can the situation be recovered?

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I don't know Heath, can the situation be recovered?

Well, this is the rub isn't it. I look at this and wonder what the hell can be done to 'fix' the problem. "The West" clearly haven't "succeeded" by pouring troops and resources into Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Pakistan etc. so I doubt pouring more troops and resources will do the trick. Doing nothing risks "anarchy" or at least increased risk over a wider area so is hardly an ideal solution. I haven't got a scooby.

 

[jan]

Mosul is the second largest city in the country iirc. If they manage to keep Mosul under long-term control then Baghdad is only matter of time.

I mean after two wars with rather mixed results they might want to solve the **** themselves...

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Can't really see how any further intervention would make things any better tbh, the US only have themselves to blame in the rise of ISIS

 

[hendrix]

Mosul in Iraq has fallen to the extremists. What a waste this Iraq war has been, hundreds of thousands dead and it's gotten worse. What was the point.

The good old US did the same thing in Afghanistan when they left the country to the Mujahiddin after the Soviets left.

Relatively speaking, of course, but quite a few of the Mujahiddin weren't that bad. In fact, most of them were all right. Even the Soviets weren't all that bad.

It's the Taliban that were the major ****s. Some of whom were Mujahiddin, yes, but as a faction they sorta mysteriously appeared out of nothing in the 90s...

If the entire Midde East were to embrace atheism and then convert every Synagogue, Church, and Mosque into a Museum then the problem would be solved I think. And while that's happening the Old City of Jerusalem should be handed over to the UN who would then administer it as a space that is both Secular and Stateless.

No.

while religion is obviously an additional problem here because it lets people justify **** easier, you still have people who believe that their land is occupied.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

With the Soviets leaving and the US thinking it's over and withdrawing support, a power Vacuum was created for the Talibs to take over. Maybe if the US actually funded and supported the right group back then instead of leaving Afghanistan to rot, things would have been different.

Why was Afghanistan left as it is but South Korea developed?

Afterall the Afghans did for the US - fighting their proxy war against the Soviets.

 

[watson]

Well, this is the rub isn't it. I look at this and wonder what the hell can be done to 'fix' the problem. "The West" clearly haven't "succeeded" by pouring troops and resources into Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Pakistan etc. so I doubt pouring more troops and resources will do the trick. Doing nothing risks "anarchy" or at least increased risk over a wider area so is hardly an ideal solution. I haven't got a scooby.

The US succeeded in both its objectives. That is, to destroy the regime of Saddam Hussein and to cripple Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

What remains to be seen is whether the regimes that eventually fill the two voids end up being more destructive than their predecessors. Personally, I don't how any replacement can possibly be worse than either the regime of Saddam Hussein or Al-Qaeda, so in that regard the US has succeeded more than it has failed.

What is clear is that Western governments will continue to fight either 'hot' or 'cold' wars against Islam inspired regimes and terrorist groups for a long time to come. Maybe the next 100 years or so? The reason that the war will be so long is that Islam is not a monolith like Japan in the 1940s, but rather a diaspora made up of many different competing factions and ideologies - chop off one head of the hydra and another one grows back. But chop them off we must as there is simply no choice in the matter.

Where does Atheism come in? Well it is the only ideology capable of competing with the ideology of Islam because it is equally uncompromising. If Islam says that "There is no God except Allah" then Atheism says back "There is no God".

Christianity is effectively useless as a competing ideology as its arguments are so tenuous and accomodating. Also, and importantly, Christianity cannot really demand that society be Secular because that would be an act of hypocrisy if you think about it. However, Atheism and Secularism go hand-in-hand, and are entirely consistent with eachother. Atheism and its ideological cousins such as Humanism demand that Monotheism be kept separate from all forms of government and its domains.

 

[hendrix]

Your ideas on religion are incredibly ignorant.

Try meeting Christian people from Asian countries and you'll see that they're far more uncompromising than most Muslims. Christianity is just as inherently secular as Islam.

 

[watson]

Your ideas on religion are incredibly ignorant.

Try meeting Christian people from Asian countries and you'll see that they're far more uncompromising than most Muslims. Christianity is just as inherently secular as Islam.

Total nonsense. Who are you trying to kid?

 

[Pothas]

Atheism is an ideology now is it?

 

[sledger]

Urgh. We've been here before, one feels...

 

[watson]

Atheism is an ideology now is it?

If you define ideology as a 'system of ideas and ideals' then yes.

After all, the claim that there is no God is nothing more than a idea. The many arguments used to backup the claim form a system of ideas. And the final realisation by an individual that Allah (for example) cannot exist by definition is the ideal.

Atheism cannot be used in any political sense as it doesn't have a list of do's and don't to enforce like Christianity or Islam. It only makes one point, and one point only - that any specific God cannot exist by definition. It cares nothing about witches, homosexuals, Sabbath breakers, or blasphemers. In other words, as a political ideology it is completely impractical as it has nothing to offer in terms of the way people should live. Atheists leave that to humanistic philosophers and these days, human biologists as well.

 

[sledger]

If you define ideology as a 'system of ideas and ideals' then yes.

After all, the claim that there is no God is nothing more than a idea. The many arguments used to backup the claim form a system of ideas. And the final realisation by an individual that Allah (for example) cannot exist by definition is the ideal.

Atheism cannot be used in any political sense as it doesn't have a list of do's and don't to enforce like Christianity or Islam. It only makes one point, and one point only - that any specific God cannot exist by definition. It cares nothing about witches, homosexuals, Sabbath breakers, or blasphemers. In other words, as a political ideology it is completely impractical as it has nothing to offer in terms of the way people should live. Atheists leave that to humanistic philosophers and these days, human biologists as well.

So now "one point" is enough to constitute a "system of ideas and ideals"?

 

[watson]

So now "one point" is enough to constitute a "system of ideas and ideals"?

That's called a mis-quote sledger.

Incidently, I really should stick to discussing cricket as cricket is far less contentious than religion or Middle Eastern politics, and everyone agrees.

 

[hendrix]

Total nonsense. Who are you trying to kid?

I am well aware of the host of pseudo-intellectuals trying to argue that Islam is inherently more secular, violent, sexist or whatever else than other religions.
They're about as intelligent as 19th century phrenology; and used in the same way to promote ignorance and racism.