Two policewomen killed in Manchester gun attack

[BoyBrumby]

From the BBC.

Senseless slaughter. Called out to what they expected to be a routine burglary and killed in cold blood.

The suspect, with a £50k reward on his head for two previous murders, then turned himself in.

Apparently it's the first time two female officers have been killed in one incident.

 

[cpr]

Been following this all day, have a few friends who work for GMP, so understandably they are in bits over this.

Know the area quite well, must've driven down Ashworth Lane a hundred times in my life, and my reaction is I'm surprised 2 female officers were sent to a call out on that estate, even at that time of day. Hattersley (not Mottram as the BBC states, so its near enough) is one rough area at the best of times.

Naturally you get people crawling out of the woodwork, screaming for the death penalty to be reintroduced, and normally I scorn as any sane person probably would. However, when were talking about a man who's murdered 4 people, 2nd time was pre-meditated, 3rd was cold and calculated, are we talking about someone who we should be thinking about punishment and rehabilitation for???? I'm a bit unsure.

 

[silentstriker]

RIP.

I'm iffy on the death penalty. In the US, many people have gotten off death row because they were shown to be innocent. You can't take back an execution. Secondly, it's grossly unfair - minorities and poor people who commit the same crimes get the death penalty much more often than other people.

I think if the case is absolutely clear cut (DNA evidence, direct video tape, etc) and it was applied fairly regardless of socioeconomic background, I might be for it. But that's a very idealized situation that occurs rarely enough as to be not worth even having it on the books, in my opinion.

 

[cpr]

Which is why I'm usually against it.


This is shaping upto be that rare case though. If what is said is proven in court, he's murdered a man, months later murdered the guys father, gone into hiding for a month, lured 2 unarmed officers to an empty house by calling in a burglary, shot them & thrown a grenade at them. Then walked into a police station to hand himself in.
Many murders are a crime of passion (hatred, lust etc), many are incident spiralled out of control (rivalries, robberies gone wrong, drunken fights). This one has ended (after 2 previous murders) in a pre-meditated, planned ambush on two innocent police officers who died because its their job to protect and serve. Its the sustained level of violence against indiscrimatite targets that makes me doubt my previous sound standing on the issue


Just seen on twitter my best mate (who lives in Broadbottom, about a mile from there) state how weird it is to see a murder scene covering the road you'd just jogged down the hour before

 

[GIMH]

Just awful stuff, aged 23 and 32 as well I believe? No age at all.

 

[Top_Cat]

Sickening, every copper's worst nightmare because it's essentially unpreventable and, even if armed, your chances aren't great.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

So it is being reported today that the bloke involved was on bail after being questioned for murder. Since when have we started bailing people suspected of crimes that serious?

 

[vic_orthdox]

The 23 year old officer was from Delph, spent a fair bit of time there last year. Awful stuff.

 

[BoyBrumby]

So it is being reported today that the bloke involved was on bail after being questioned for murder. Since when have we started bailing people suspected of crimes that serious?

Since forever, basically. If there isn't enough evidence to charge they have to be released after a maximum of 72 hours.

I'd also heard that apparently local journos knew he was staying in that house and had been there for 2 weeks, so if they knew either the police also knew or there's a serious intelligence gathering failure.

 

[GIMH]

Caught a glimpse on the news last night and there were parents saying they wouldn't let their kids play out if he was around, so yeah, wtf was going on and why wasn't something done more quickly? Bizarre, just can't fathom stuff like this.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Since forever, basically. If there isn't enough evidence to charge they have to be released after a maximum of 72 hours.

I'd also heard that apparently local journos knew he was staying in that house and had been there for 2 weeks, so if they knew either the police also knew or there's a serious intelligence gathering failure.

Well didn't he shoot someone in a pub, how can you not have enough evidence for that?

Or was that the other murder he did?

All in all a serious balls up by GMP which has ended in tragedy and a senseless waste of 2 young women.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well didn't he shoot someone in a pub, how can you not have enough evidence for that?

Or was that the other murder he did?

All in all a serious balls up by GMP which has ended in tragedy and a senseless waste of 2 young women.

I obviously don't know for sure, but I'd imagine something like no direct forensics and the fella strikes one as someone who giving evidence against might be a bit of a risky occupation, so no eye witnesses either.

 

[fredfertang]

Well didn't he shoot someone in a pub, how can you not have enough evidence for that?

It's not always that easy - eg Ronnie Kray

 

[flibbertyjibber]

It's not always that easy - eg Ronnie Kray

Well most pubs have cctv these days etc...

 

[Top_Cat]

Caught a glimpse on the news last night and there were parents saying they wouldn't let their kids play out if he was around, so yeah, wtf was going on and why wasn't something done more quickly? Bizarre, just can't fathom stuff like this.

Am wondering whether the coppers were aware. Might have been one of those cases where everyone tells everyone there's a bad dude in the neighbourhood except the cops. Because you'd imagine if they had the slightest inkling a bailee with a firearms history was anywhere in the area, would surely qualify as a high-risk arrest. Especially since the UK's bar for that is set lower than elsewhere.

If that turns out to be the case, no-one is to blame (the crook aside) but the people who live there should have a strong, critical look at themselves, really.

EDIT: All indications are they had no idea what they were walking into. Oye.

 

[cover drive man]

Horrible stuff.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

One thing that I can't get my head around is why the press keep asking why it was 2 women officers together and could something else have been done, it appears that it would be 2 dead police officers no matter what sex they were as it was an ambush by a nutter so having a male officer there would have been irrelevant.

 

[fredfertang]

Well most pubs have cctv these days etc...

They do indeed, but in my experience the quality is seldom good enough to base a case on if all the witnesses clam up which, in these gang related things, is sadly all too frequent

 

[fredfertang]

One thing that I can't get my head around is why the press keep asking why it was 2 women officers together and could something else have been done, it appears that it would be 2 dead police officers no matter what sex they were as it was an ambush by a nutter so having a male officer there would have been irrelevant.

Quite, and in any event there are situations where women officers are more effective anyway, and of course we don't know what intelligence the police had about the place, and I suspect we never will get the full picture on that one

 

[cpr]

I'd also heard that apparently local journos knew he was staying in that house and had been there for 2 weeks, so if they knew either the police also knew or there's a serious intelligence gathering failure.

Doubting thats true TBH, firstly you wouldn't blag that now, as you'll possibly be facing charges for withholding vital evidence in an ongoing murder investigation - also, you'd be £50,000 worse off for not claiming the reward.

Am wondering whether the coppers were aware. Might have been one of those cases where everyone tells everyone there's a bad dude in the neighbourhood except the cops. Because you'd imagine if they had the slightest inkling a bailee with a firearms history was anywhere in the area, would surely qualify as a high-risk arrest. Especially since the UK's bar for that is set lower than elsewhere.

If that turns out to be the case, no-one is to blame (the crook aside) but the people who live there should have a strong, critical look at themselves, really.

Its an estate that definately keeps itself to itself, and one that would dish out its own punishment for ratting to the authorities. Anyone who grasses there better be damn sure theres room on the witness protection program.

They do indeed, but in my experience the quality is seldom good enough to base a case on if all the witnesses clam up which, in these gang related things, is sadly all too frequent

Can confirm pub CCTV isn't normally good enough quality to make out enough details, as I'm still dissapointed with the playback from the night of the stag do and the stripper.....