What a bunch of fickle idiots!

[Anil]

Comparing the 2 is stupid IMO - Football Hooligans fight each other, they do not go to the extremes to praise or criticise their team, and they certainly do not burn effigy's of the players!

No, they don't. They just go around drunk and stoned and wreck the locality and hurt anyone who comes in their way, that's all, and that, I suppose is better than what's happening in India.

Both are examples of irrational, destructive behaviour arising from violent, uncontrolled passion(or obsession if you like) or even from a general desire to destroy and they can be compared on that ground. Just because both groups of people don't do the exact same thing doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

If you want to know something really stupid, it's your analysis that praising or crictisizing their teams and burning effigies count as "extreme" behaviour while drunken fighting on the streets because a football match is won or lost doesn't.

 

[marc71178]

No, they don't. They just go around drunk and stoned and wreck the locality and hurt anyone who comes in their way, that's all, and that, I suppose is better than what's happening in India.

Both are examples of irrational, destructive behaviour arising from violent, uncontrolled passion(or obsession if you like) or even from a general desire to destroy and they can be compared on that ground. Just because both groups of people don't do the exact same thing doesn't mean that one is better than the other.

If you want to know something really stupid, it's your analysis that praising or crictisizing their teams and burning effigies count as "extreme" behaviour while drunken fighting on the streets because a football match is won or lost doesn't.

The Hooligans do not exist to watch football, and they are there for a fight no matter the score.

Comparisons are futile because with the "Terrace Element" it's either one thing or the other, whereas with Football hooligans it's only one thing. There is a distinct difference.

 

[Anil]

The Hooligans do not exist to watch football, and they are there for a fight no matter the score.

Comparisons are futile because with the "Terrace Element" it's either one thing or the other, whereas with Football hooligans it's only one thing. There is a distinct difference.

Did you even begin answering any of the questions I posed? You are making the same statement you made earlier in a different way(probably because you didn't have an answer).

The blindly passionate Indian fans also don't exist to watch cricket, they have their own daily lives to worry about most of the time.

Also, are you saying that since the football hooligans are there for a fight no matter what the score, their actions are justified? their actions are less destructive?

Why are comparisons futile(is it just because you deem them so or is it because you prefer to avoid looking at that black spot in English sports?) and what do you mean by "one thing or the other" for Indian cricket hooligans and "only one thing" for British football hooligans? Explain yourself clearly if you want to make yourself understood.

 

[PY]

You ever been to a football match in England before? Cos from what you are saying you haven't. The actions of English hooligans is blown way out of proportion by the English and World media. Generally you will find that the troublemakers are not interested in the game and aren't directly linked to football clubs. The only reason they get connected to clubs is because they like pitting their 'wits' against another gang from another city also thinking the same thing. You don't see football fans burning effigys of their own players and upsetting them like that. And generally in the last 5 years there hasnt been a football match interrupted by crown trouble and forced to stop due to things happening on terraces (not just terraces in cricket). Granted any attempt to say that hooliganism is alright is a complete joke because it hurts normal fans like me :!( :!( :!( ie bars in local towns shut because they expect trouble. Anyway this is in serious danger of turning into flame wars so I've made my pint
I mean point must be on the mind....CW bar it is

 

[Gotchya]

The blindly passionate Indian fans also don't exist to watch cricket, they have their own daily lives to worry about most of the time.

I do believe that this is not true. Maybe you could say that of the recent crowd troubles, but those people you are talking about DO care about cricket. Otherwise we would have seen an *Indian* being thrashed rather then an *Indiam who happens to be the captain of the National cricket side* Though I disagree that English football fans are any less notorious, Indian fans do go ahead of those in Pakistan or England I haven't seen such emtional reactions in Pakistan as evidenced in India.

Just think of it though.....Pakistan play India later....

 

[Rik]

Sorry Anil, you just can't compare football hooligans with Indian Cricket Fans.

One group are just there to fight, whatever a result, and the other go between 2 extreames depending on weather the team wins or looses. And in case you had not guessed the answers are the Hooligans for the former and the Indian Cricket Fans for the latter...

The latter care about the result, the former do not...

 

[marc71178]

Did you even begin answering any of the questions I posed?

You didn't ask any questions though, just a series of statements!

 

[Anil]

I do believe that this is not true. Maybe you could say that of the recent crowd troubles, but those people you are talking about DO care about cricket. Otherwise we would have seen an *Indian* being thrashed rather then an *Indiam who happens to be the captain of the National cricket side* Though I disagree that English football fans are any less notorious, Indian fans do go ahead of those in Pakistan or England I haven't seen such emtional reactions in Pakistan as evidenced in India.

Just think of it though.....Pakistan play India later....

Oh the Indian fan cares about cricket all right. That was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought Marc was suggesting that English football fans do not exist just for football unlike Indian cricket fans which led me to believe that he was suggesting that the Indian fan doesn't have a life outside of cricket. Hence my reaction.

However, people who burn effigies of players or people who throw bottles at players in the field are in such a minority that when Marc made such sweeping statements about Indian fans, I was forced to react. Also, don't try to make out that the Pak fans don't go in for violent reactions when the team loses badly(eg: after the 99 WC where Pak lost badly in the finals and to India in the SS match) and especially when the team loses to India. It's just as bad over there. Isn't it true that the bad loss to England and even an early exit will be largely forgiven if the team manages to beat India?

If these hooligans, as Marc, P+E and Rik say aren't really interested in the football part of it and are there just to make trouble whatever the result, why do they always choose football in the first place, why not cricket? in fact why any sporting event in the first place? If they just want to cause rioting, they can as well do it at other places, can't they? Why then is it always connected to football? I said at the very beginning that I am comparing them on the basis that both result in wanton acts of destruction and public safety issues, not the very act or the sport to which it is attached or the countries it takes place in. Marc further suggested that the Indian fans' reactions are extreme while the hooligans' reactions aren't. I found that statement ridiculous and said so.

I am not condoning these sort of actions in any way. I am just pointing out that people who live in glass houses should think twice, thrice before throwing stones.

 

[marc71178]

If these hooligans, as Marc, P+E and Rik say aren't really interested in the football part of it and are there just to make trouble whatever the result, why do they always choose football in the first place, why not cricket? in fact why any sporting event in the first place? If they just want to cause rioting, they can as well do it at other places, can't they? Why then is it always connected to football? I said at the very beginning that I am comparing them on the basis that both result in wanton acts of destruction and public safety issues, not the very act or the sport to which it is attached or the countries it takes place in. Marc further suggested that the Indian fans' reactions are extreme while the hooligans' reactions aren't. I found that statement ridiculous and said so.

I am not condoning these sort of actions in any way. I am just pointing out that people who live in glass houses should think twice, thrice before throwing stones.

They aren't interested in the Football in the main, but for some reason they selected Football to latch onto (maybe it's the chance to go overseas and fight foreigners?)

The thing is though, over here, Cricket doesn't get passionate, so the trouble doesn't happen, whereas football does and so it kicks off. The the sport gets a reputation and it's fair game (to the extent that the last 2 or 3 major incidents involving England "fans" away from home have actually occurred because the police attacked them (note that I'm not saying they're blameless, just that they dont' start the troubles all the time)

As for the extreme reactions I guess we're interpreting the word extreme in different ways - I'm going on the way there's no middle ground, it's either lots of criticism (to the extent of the burning of effigies) or lots of praise (to the extent of some of the over the top posts on here about 6-8 months ago).

Anil, I guess was saying the actions of hooligans are extreme as their unwarrented?

 

[anzac]

or to put it another way....

to the Indian cricket 'fan' cricket is the crux of the matter, whereas to the British football hooligan, football is just a means to an ends....

I was watching a doco on the football hooligans which likened it to modern era tribalism & being the British equivalent of the street gangs in the USA - absolutley nothing to do with sport or the team to which they are 'affiliated', with some 'hooligans' going out of their way to join specific groups in their area based upon the group's reputation for extreme violence & their ability to infiltrate into european matches......

the football hooligans may be more anti social in their behaviour re the property damage & violence, but the violence is directed against like minded neanderthals.....whereas the Indian cricket 'fans' IMO are more sinister as they target the very players that are the subject of their 'adoration'.....

one are a bunch of psycopaths & the other are schizophrenics (or however you spell them), both are bad for their respective national sports and are not to be tolerated! Consequently any debate as to who is worse is redundant!!!!

:!(

 

[Neil Pickup]

Absolutely 100% agreed!

 

[Rik]

If these hooligans, as Marc, P+E and Rik say aren't really interested in the football part of it and are there just to make trouble whatever the result, why do they always choose football in the first place, why not cricket? in fact why any sporting event in the first place?

Football is cheaper, more available and more popular over here...just like Cricket in India...

 

[Bazza]

Absolutely 100% agreed!

All except for this bit:

Originally posted by anzac
the football hooligans may be more anti social in their behaviour re the property damage & violence, but the violence is directed against like minded neanderthals

Yeah, except when it's directed against innocent people who have genuinely gone to watch a football match.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Er, I missed that :saint:

 

[PY]

Yeah, except when it's directed against innocent people who have genuinely gone to watch a football match.

In my experience which is not that great but I'm far from naive about it and I think that generally fans who dont want trouble can avoid trouble if they want to. granted that aint always the case but there seems to be more bulk of fans in India who cause trouble and u cant get away from it??????don't no if that right. Therefore I agree completely with Anzac.:saint:

 

[luckyeddie]

In my experience which is not that great but I'm far from naive about it and I think that generally fans who dont want trouble can avoid trouble if they want to. granted that aint always the case but there seems to be more bulk of fans in India who cause trouble and u cant get away from it??????don't no if that right. Therefore I agree completely with Anzac.:saint:

I'll tell you a little story. In 1970, I was going to watch Derby at Everton. We stopped at a motorway service station for pies, porn and a pee. At the same service station was a coach load of Crystal Palace supporters. I walked around a corner and walked into.... a baseball bat.

Don't tell me you can avoid it.

 

[marc71178]

In my experience which is not that great but I'm far from naive about it and I think that generally fans who dont want trouble can avoid trouble if they want to.

Coventry vs Cardiff about 6 weeks ago - there were a few Coventry fans goading the Cardiff fans from the back of the stand, but several people around me (including myself) were hit by coins etc thrown at us.

We had no reason to want trouble, having just come to watch a game of Football, yet we couldn't avoid it.

The Cardiff "fans" were certainly more interested in fighting than Football, and innocents bore the brunt of it.

 

[PY]

In my experience which is not that great but I'm far from naive about it and I think that generally fans who dont want trouble can avoid trouble if they want to. granted that aint always the case but there seems to be more bulk of fans in India who cause trouble and u cant get away from it??????don't no if that right. Therefore I agree completely with Anzac.:saint: [/B]

Was just saying that I haven't had any problems at away games that I've been to if I've been sensible ie not worn a Grimsby Town scarf to an away game cos that just attracts trouble. Worst thing I've had happen to me was people throwing wet Fruit Pastilles at me which stick to you (granted its disgusting but aint lethal) and people spitting again disgusting but not lethal.Wasn't alive in 1970 :saint: so can't really comment but my dad says it was a lot worse then than it is now. but I'll bow to your better experience/knowledge and lose the argument

 

[Bazza]

Well I would just like to say I was in Cardiff yesterday and didn't see one incident. I was in a pub where there must have been 500 fans (mixed) and plenty of drink was being swilled but not one incident!

Which was nice!!

 

[marc71178]

Well I would just like to say I was in Cardiff yesterday and didn't see one incident. I was in a pub where there must have been 500 fans (mixed) and plenty of drink was being swilled but not one incident!

Which was nice!!

As was the result for us that dislike Manure's arrogant fans!