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who should retire?

retirement blues


  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .

sanga1337

Well-known member
Think kumble should retire fairly soon. Dravid and Ganguly should think about retiring to give some youngsters a chance. Tendulkar and Laxman should look to stay around for a bit longer afterwards so that they all don't end up retiring at the same time. And even if they don't end up doing amazingly well with the bat, Im sure there experience will be handy for a couple of years to the younger players who are just coming in to the team.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Kumble's time is up I am afraid and he will be knowing that inside him. I think he will be taking a call once the coming Australian series is over.

Dravid has been terrible for last 2 years.

Ganguly is well, "mercurial", but has played some vital knocks here and there.

Tendulkar has been out of form for just one series and should not be counted for this whole "retirement" circus.
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Err...like who ? India dropped Mohammad Kaif, a man who averages 63 in his past 5 tests including back to wall efforts against strong Australian and English bowling attacks and we brought in Ganguly, a player who has never hit a test match hundred against a team with a quality fast bowling attack.

And Saurav has hardly changed that that in the time he has played or India since.....
Kaif's performance in last series was 13, 46* 148*, 0, 13, 6. Highly earth shattering. It was a fairly average series for him which looks great on paper.

In last 5 years India have given chance to Kaif, Yuvraj, Jaffer, KDK, Gambhir

In Spin Bowling :- Murali Kartik, Chawla, Powar
 

ret

Well-known member
In last 5 years India have given chance to Kaif, Yuvraj, Jaffer, KDK, Gambhir

In Spin Bowling :- Murali Kartik, Chawla, Powar
last 5 years 8-) .... aren't we talking abt the recent performances :laugh:
 

Salamuddin

Well-known member
Kaif's performance in last series was 13, 46* 148*, 0, 13, 6. Highly earth shattering. It was a fairly average series for him which looks great on paper.

In last 5 years India have given chance to Kaif, Yuvraj, Jaffer, KDK, Gambhir

In Spin Bowling :- Murali Kartik, Chawla, Powar
Jaffer was an opener and is thus completely irrelevant to a discussion involving India's middle order players. Ditto Gambhir and Dinesh Kartik.

So the grand sum of middle order players tried out was 2 - one of which was a failure yes, in Yuvraj. As for Kaif, rather convenient of you to overlook his match saving 91 at Nagpur just before the scores you did give.
His figures may not have been Bradmanesque but I think he showed enough promise to be persisted with. He was hardly the failure you make him out to be.
Especially considering the senior guys have not exactly been churning out better performances.


As for the spinners, you're on thin ground here Sanz......Kartik played a grand sum of 8 tests over 8 years, Chawla has played what 2 tests and Powar none.
And Mishra probably the best qualified spinner India has has played none.

My point is no young player (middle order or spinner) has been given an extended run in the team to prove himself. Very few players become world beaters overnight - it takes time and patience to develop players.
 
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Precambrian

Banned
My point is no young player (middle order or spinner) has been given an extended run in the team to prove himself.
That begs the question, was there ever the need for an EXTENDED run? See the stats of how the spinners have performed in the last few years (except this year, Kumble been super poor), there's been no real need to change the existing spin attack nor the established quartet of SDGL. The consistency of the quartet has been very good, and whenever one of thes, (esp G - Ganguly), was dropped, the replacements were found wanting (Yuvraj for instance).

Yuvraj's been given enough opportunities to showcase his abilites and we all saw how crudely his deficiencies at the highest level of cricket were exposed.
 

Salamuddin

Well-known member
That begs the question, was there ever the need for an EXTENDED run? See the stats of how the spinners have performed in the last few years (except this year, Kumble been super poor), there's been no real need to change the existing spin attack nor the established quartet of SDGL. The consistency of the quartet has been very good, and whenever one of thes, (esp G - Ganguly), was dropped, the replacements were found wanting (Yuvraj for instance).

Yuvraj's been given enough opportunities to showcase his abilites and we all saw how crudely his deficiencies at the highest level of cricket were exposed.

Yuvraj being a failure has no bearing on how well a Kaif or a Badrinath would fare as a replacement for one of the big wigs.

Yuvraj was/is not even the best qualified candidate for a middle order replacement so to use his failure as an excuse for not effecting change is silly.
 

Salamuddin

Well-known member
That begs the question, was there ever the need for an EXTENDED run? See the stats of how the spinners have performed in the last few years (except this year, Kumble been super poor), there's been no real need to change the existing spin attack nor the established quartet of SDGL. The consistency of the quartet has been very good, and whenever one of thes, (esp G - Ganguly), was dropped, the replacements were found wanting (Yuvraj for instance).

Yuvraj's been given enough opportunities to showcase his abilites and we all saw how crudely his deficiencies at the highest level of cricket were exposed.

Dravid has been poor for 2 years now....Tendulkar has been extremely unreliable for quite a while and Ganguly has never been much chop against decent bowling attacks at test cricket.

SO yes, I think there has been the need for change and it has been apparent to me for some time.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Yuvraj being a failure has no bearing on how well a Kaif or a Badrinath would fare as a replacement for one of the big wigs.

Yuvraj was/is not even the best qualified candidate for a middle order replacement so to use his failure as an excuse for not effecting change is silly.
Yuvraj Singh is considered as a frontrunner considering his vast international experience in the ODIs and his "talent". which is confused with his bighitting abilites.

Kaif? While admitting that he has been consistent in the past couple of years or so in the Ranji Trophy, he's yet to make that STRONG push (a big hundred, a double hundred) etc. to get into the national reckoning.

And Badri? He'd walk into third spot in my team sheet today. Sheer talent wasted.
 

Precambrian

Banned
Dravid has been poor for 2 years now....Tendulkar has been extremely unreliable for quite a while and Ganguly has never been much chop against decent bowling attacks at test cricket.

SO yes, I think there has been the need for change and it has been apparent to me for some time.
Hold on Hold on... Agree to other points, Must be a bit myopic about Tendulkar! The series before this (ok he played a solitary inngs vs SA, so the one before that!), he averaged close to 70 in Australia. And the ODI form?
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Jaffer was an opener and is thus completely irrelevant to a discussion involving India's middle order players. Ditto Gambhir and Dinesh Kartik.

So the grand sum of middle order players tried out was 2 - one of which was a failure yes, in Yuvraj. As for Kaif, rather convenient of you to overlook his match saving 91 at Nagpur just before the scores you did give.
His figures may not have been Bradmanesque but I think he showed enough promise to be persisted with. He was hardly the failure you make him out to be.
Especially considering the senior guys have not exactly been churning out better performances.
KDK played majority (14 out of 21) of his tests as a middle order batsman, so let's not ignore that and he averages 20 something in that.

And no I didn't ignore Kaif's 91 vs. England, it is just that it is irrelevant here in the discussion. that match was played in mar 2006 and because of that performance he made it to the June WI tour where he performed poorly and was dropped rightly so after the tour.

As for the spinners, you're on thin ground here Sanz......Kartik played a grand sum of 8 tests over 8 years, Chawla has played what 2 tests and Powar none.
And Mishra probably the best qualified spinner India has has played none.
Kartik played enough tests to show that he can't replace Kumble or even Harbhajan. Powar played 2 tests vs, Bangladesh, he was okay, nothing stellar, neither was Chawla. And I dont understand how I am on thin grounds, you dont drop your best spinner to give extended runs to your youngsters. This is international test cricket we are talking about, not some mindless series in timbuktu, you have to earn the position and make the best of oportunities given to you.

My point is no young player (middle order or spinner) has been given an extended run in the team to prove himself. Very few players become world beaters overnight - it takes time and patience to develop players.
And they wont until someone is dropped or someone retires. Unless their form is really poor for an extended period of time, you dont drop proven players like Sachin, Dravid, VVS, Kumble and Ganguly to give some youngsters extended run. Look at Australia there Lehman, Hussey, Clark, Martyn, Hayden etc had to wait for years before they got their youngsters a extended run.

Yes very few players become world beaters, and that's why you dont replace the proven world beaters in your team with the youngsters for the sake of giving chance.
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Yuvraj being a failure has no bearing on how well a Kaif or a Badrinath would fare as a replacement for one of the big wigs.

Yuvraj was/is not even the best qualified candidate for a middle order replacement so to use his failure as an excuse for not effecting change is silly.
Excuse me ? Yuvraj was the main player considered as the replacement for one of those stalwarts in the middle order and he got majority of the limited opportunities that came in the middle order. Even Kaif, has failed majority of the times he has beem given a chance. I know he should have got an extended run and all that, but that was not going to happen because of the quatret of SRT/RD/VVS/SG. He simply is not talented enough to demand that and neither has he put any kind consistent dominating display of batting in domestic cricket.
 

weldone

Well-known member
Kumble being almost 39 or 40 looks to be the likely candidate. I think he would do India and himself great service by stepping out gracefully and letting one of Piyush Chawla, Amit Mishra or Pragyan Ojha step into the Indian test side. Ganguly is a fighter, Laxman is still fairly consistent and Tendulkar is a legend who will go out on his terms. It looks like Dravid is the next candidate after Kumble.
Agree with most of the points...Ya, it's Kumble's time it seems though he's a great fighter and I'll be very happy if he bounces back in the next series; but probably with spinners like Amit Mishra and Piyush Chawla (and of course Harbhajan) around it's time for Kumble to go now or soon...According to me, no question should arise of Tendulkar or Laxman retiring...I'm not too sure about Ganguly or Dravid at this point though, but any more failure from here on will certainly end their careers; whether we want it or not...

And speaking from Indian point of view, I never wanted the 4 middle order batsmen to retire together...I always wanted to see them retire 1 by 1 so that the youngstars can come 1 by 1 and one can gather little experience before another youngstar comes...so that the line-up doesn't lose all the experience at a sudden...

Personal views of course...
 

Salamuddin

Well-known member
KDK played majority (14 out of 21) of his tests as a middle order batsman, so let's not ignore that and he averages 20 something in that.

And no I didn't ignore Kaif's 91 vs. England, it is just that it is irrelevant here in the discussion. that match was played in mar 2006 and because of that performance he made it to the June WI tour where he performed poorly and was dropped rightly so after the tour.

Kartik played enough tests to show that he can't replace Kumble or even Harbhajan. Powar played 2 tests vs, Bangladesh, he was okay, nothing stellar, neither was Chawla. And I dont understand how I am on thin grounds, you dont drop your best spinner to give extended runs to your youngsters. This is international test cricket we are talking about, not some mindless series in timbuktu, you have to earn the position and make the best of oportunities given to you.



And they wont until someone is dropped or someone retires. Unless their form is really poor for an extended period of time, you dont drop proven players like Sachin, Dravid, VVS, Kumble and Ganguly to give some youngsters extended run. Look at Australia there Lehman, Hussey, Clark, Martyn, Hayden etc had to wait for years before they got their youngsters a extended run.

Yes very few players become world beaters, and that's why you dont replace the proven world beaters in your team with the youngsters for the sake of giving chance.
Karthik's a wicketkeeper batsman - he was never seen as a frontline replacement for the so-called big 4 so why you are bringing his numbers into here - I have no idea.

Why is Kaif's 91 irrelevant ? That was part of a contiguous series of matches that he played including the series in the WI. And considering the circumstances that was played in - highly relevant.
And how was his performance in the Windies poor ? Inconsistent maybe but way overboard calling it poor especially considering the last two failures came on a pitch that pretty much every batsman barring Dravid who played probably played two of his best test innings failed.
Kaif wasn't dropped because his performance was poor per se - he was dropped because Ganguly had to be in the team no matter what.

The world beaters have hardly been churning out consistent performances over a sustained period now. Dravid has been averaging around 30 for two years now . You honestly think that is acceptable ?
Ganguly has never been particularly good against bowling attacks of decent quality and yet he was picked instead of Kaif, a bloke who had shown real promise against some strong attacks.
Ganguly's numbers may look ok since his recall - but his numbers have been heavily padded by performances against weak attacks.
Tendulkar has been averaging under 40 since 2006 and has probably had only 1 decent series - v AUs - in that time. He is far from a reliable batsman these days.

If India's senior pros were still performing, they'd have the results to show for it. BUT they don't. Its pretty simple.
In the last 3 years, India have only managed to draw home series against RSA, PAK and Eng - blew a golden opportunity to beat RSA at home and muffed up a chance to draw away in Australia when all they had to do was bat for two sessions.
Not to mention the latest debacle in Sri Lanka.
And the batting is largely to blame for most of those results.

As for the spinners, yes this is probably not as problematic an area as the batting....however if you were going to judge players on the basis of two contiguous tests at the start of their career, Harbhajan would never have played test cricket because he was far from stellar at the start of his career !
 

Salamuddin

Well-known member
Excuse me ? Yuvraj was the main player considered as the replacement for one of those stalwarts in the middle order and he got majority of the limited opportunities that came in the middle order. Even Kaif, has failed majority of the times he has beem given a chance. I know he should have got an extended run and all that, but that was not going to happen because of the quatret of SRT/RD/VVS/SG. He simply is not talented enough to demand that and neither has he put any kind consistent dominating display of batting in domestic cricket.
Talented ? Give me an effing break.....You've got Saurav Ganguly in there - a guy who has never made a test hundred against a team with a quality fast bowling attack.

Kaif was one of the best performers in the last domestic season and he had shown that he could play decent bowling under real pressure in tests. Now if that doesn't warrant more chances, I don't know what does.

Congratulations btw on totally missing my point on Yuvraj.....whether he failed or not has no bearing on how Kaif or Badrinath would fare as a potential replacement.
And he was not even the best performer in domestic first class cricket.
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Karthik's a wicketkeeper batsman - he was never seen as a frontline replacement for the so-called big 4 so why you are bringing his numbers into here - I have no idea.
Karthik has had an opportunity to cement his place as a proper batsman, He didn't. If he had performed well enough, he would be there in the team in the middle order batting.

Why is Kaif's 91 irrelevant ? That was part of a contiguous series of matches that he played including the series in the WI.
It is irrelevant because he was dropped for the next two tests of the series in favor of Yuvraj.

And considering the circumstances that was played in - highly relevant.
And how was his performance in the Windies poor ? Inconsistent maybe but way overboard calling it poor especially considering the last two failures came on a pitch that pretty much every batsman barring Dravid who played probably played two of his best test innings failed.
Dont forget to add His main score came in the match where everyone made merry. You can call it inconsistent, I call it poor. Not much difference IMO.

Kaif wasn't dropped because his performance was poor per se - he was dropped because Ganguly had to be in the team no matter what.
And that was not a poor decision. Ganguly has scored 1500+ @45+
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Talented ? Give me an effing break.....You've got Saurav Ganguly in there - a guy who has never made a test hundred against a team with a quality fast bowling attack.
Yada yada yada yada yap yap yap yap...I love it when people start showing off their own prejudices very early in the argument. It saves a lot my time.

7000 Runs vs. 700 runs.
 

Sanz

Well-known member
Kaif was one of the best performers in the last domestic season and he had shown that he could play decent bowling under real pressure in tests. Now if that doesn't warrant more chances, I don't know what does..
Did he outperform Ganguly ?

http://stats.cricinfo.com/indiandom...ge.html?class=4;host=6;id=2007/08;type=season

He failed in the Irani Trophy , Ranji Trophy Final. Failed in the Challenger Trophy. Sorry these are the main tournaments where the selectors want you to perform because you play against the best. Kaif failed in ALL of them.
 

Sanz

Well-known member
In the last 3 years, India have only managed to draw home series against RSA, PAK and Eng - blew a golden opportunity to beat RSA at home and muffed up a chance to draw away in Australia when all they had to do was bat for two sessions.
Yeah let's forget that in that lost match against SA, Ganguly was the highest scorer. Not to forget the match that India won against SA, Sourav Ganguly was the Man of the Match for his batting. Worst Bloke, how could he score runs for India and block the way for youngsters.

Also forget that India would have leading the series in Australia @ Perth if not for Umpiring horrors in Sydney. What was the average of the young promising middle order batsman of India - 4.25. Wow really earth shattering performance. Really ready to challenge Tendulkar, Ganguly, VVS and Dravid.

Not to mention the latest debacle in Sri Lanka.
Yeah like the young stars of India had really shown that they were prepared to face Mendis.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/asiacup/engine/match/335358.html

16,0, 3,20 - Looks like a good Telephone no.


And the batting is largely to blame for most of those results.
Yeah Right, such an objective and apt assessment. I am really impressed.
 

Salamuddin

Well-known member
Yada yada yada yada yap yap yap yap...I love it when people start showing off their own prejudices very early in the argument. It saves a lot my time.

7000 Runs vs. 700 runs.
Well sunshine, how can Kaif possibly have the same number of runs as Ganguly if he is not even afforded the opportunity to get those runs ?


Prejudiced....how so ?
I am merely pointing out that Ganguly has generally not done particularly well against stronger bowling attacks.
This is borne out in his career record....he's a reasonable test batsman and nothing more than that. And I'm not convinced that given opportunities Kaif or Badrinath couldn't do better.
 
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