The problem here is that you're stating value judgements as if they're concrete facts. I'm afraid that repeating the mantra that Jair, Riverlinho & Tostao were ATGs doesn't make it true. Very fine players of course, but not remotely on the same plane as Pele over a significant period of time. I'm not sure why you're basing their status on Pele's opinion of them given your earlier post to the effect that he regularly didn't know what he was talking about. I dunno who you mean by 'the world' but I don't know many folks who'd place Carlos Alberto as one of the greatest full backs of all time. held in great affection, obviously, as as a one-time right back myself his goal against Italy is the stuff of wet dreams, but I wouldn't pick him ahead of someone I knew would do his job at the back.
btw if we're dismissing Pele's record of over 1000 fc goals, do we have any idea how many other players came close to that? If defensive standards were so poor, there should be quite a few.
But it's all value-judgement, nothing is concrete fact. That is a given. I am just stating what generally you hear from players of the time and after about said players. If you want to redefine what people consider all-time greats, then go ahead. For me, and I know many others, those players are all-time greats. If said players aren't, then it leaves a bigger question as to who you think are all-time greats. Because if they aren't, then the standard you're holding for an ATG is very high and I doubt many teams had more than 2-3 at a time.
I mean, if you actually read about Carlos Alberto, you'll see how highly rated he is as a full-back. In fact, just before the WC ESPN was doing a "make your own dream XI" and he was one of the candidates. I know that isn't definitive but I am just showing a main-stream source and how they rate the guy. He was one of the first marauding full-backs and his 4th goal for Brazil in the final is legendary and typifies the way he played. The guy is usually discussed in serious discussions about teams of the century, etc.
Regarding Santos, I don't have a good database but I remember reading that there was a player who had scored even more than Pele. During Pele's time, Santos had by far the best players and steam-rolled the opposition. In fact, that team itself was probably the best in the world. Whether it's opposition was upto scratch is debatable. I've read sources where there are seasons where Pele scored 100 goals and yet, as I mention again, he never once topped the WC goalscoring charts or even came that close. Even in RSSSF he has seasons claiming 40-58 goals. It's akin to Bradman averaging 100 in FC cricket then failing to even have the highest average in Tests.
The reality is he has a fantastic record, as The Sean has shown, but whether he is bordering on god-like 3-goals-a-game is
very doubtful.
Dude, from a very young age he was being fed illegal concoctions to help his growth and speed with the knowledge of his team and family.Everyone wanted to make a dollar off him. It has caused him a number of problems in later life.
To say he didnt take PED ignores the fact that he was, for want of a better word, scientifically engineered by PED.
That sounds like a load of rubbish to be honest. I've never heard of such a thing until you've mentioned it. The article you cited almost sounds like a hit-job. There simply is no proof of him ever having performance enhancing drugs until 94. In truth, his game wasn't about how fast he could run or how high he could jump, he was pure brains. He is the anti-theses of Pele who was as physically endowed as an Olympian.
