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Isis

watson

Banned
I think that I would need to be an expert in Middle Eastern politics to fully grasp the essay, but I think that the author makes it reasonably clear that Middle Eastern conflicts are made worse by the 'US' and 'THEM' mentality of Sectarianism. Unfortunately, the Sectarian divides seem to be so complex and so convoluted that few people can make sense of them, least of all outsiders. For this reason, outsiders (like the US Forces) should always stay out of Middle Eastern conflicts when possible and just let them run their course for fear of the exacerbating the problem.

The conclusion of the author is good as it promotes the obvious idea of side-stepping religion to build non-sectarian national institutions.

In my next article on this topic, I will discuss how we got here, the crisis of Sunni identity that sits at the heart of these conflicts, and how Western and, in particular, American policy should change to accommodate the realities of the Middle East and to focus on building and reinforcing non-sectarian national institutions and national forces.
However, there is a problem to the authors goal - the Islamic system is not geared to allow the separation of national institutions from religious ideology. In fact, the system of Islam is directly opposed to this simple ideal. At every available opportunity the Islamic system will seek to shape civil and criminal law in its own image. Politicians who oppose the Islamic system will lose political power, and politicians who collude with the Islamic system will gain political power.

So it's all very well to 'focus on building and reinforcing non-sectarian national institutions and national forces', but this can only really happen if the Islamic system is first drained of its power. The simplest and best way of doing this is to fund and promote Science in all its forms, and complain bitterly when atheists, agnostics, and apostates are locked-up or threatened. It's not a quick strategy, but grass-root strategies never are.
 
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watson

Banned
Here is another conflict that the Americans are meddling in when they really shouldn't....

Yemen conflict: Major pro-rebel demonstration in Sanaa

Large numbers of Yemenis have taken part in a demonstration in the capital Sanaa in support of Houthi rebels and their allies, who control the city.

Demonstrators backed a new governing council announced by the rebels.

Shortly afterwards, bombs were reported to have been dropped nearby by planes of the Saudi-led coalition backing the internationally recognised government.

The Saudis have been repeatedly criticised over civilian deaths in air strikes in Yemen.

Separately, the US military has cut the number of its advisers directly supporting the Saudis' air war in Yemen from about 45 to five, US officials announced. However they said this was not related to growing international concern over civilian casualties.....

Yemen conflict: Major pro-rebel demonstration in Sanaa - BBC News

Yemen crisis: Who is fighting whom?

....What happens in Yemen can greatly exacerbate regional tensions. It also worries the West because of the threat of attacks emanating from the country as it becomes more unstable.

Western intelligence agencies consider AQAP the most dangerous branch of al-Qaeda because of its technical expertise and global reach. The US has been carrying out operations, including drone strikes, against AQAP in Yemen with President Hadi's co-operation, but the Houthis' advance has meant the US campaign has been scaled back.

The conflict between the Houthis and the elected government is also seen as part of a regional power struggle between Shia-ruled Iran and Sunni-ruled Saudi Arabia, which shares a long border with Yemen.

Gulf Arab states have accused Iran of backing the Houthis financially and militarily, though Iran has denied this, and they are themselves backers of President Hadi.

Yemen is strategically important because it sits on the Bab al-Mandab strait, a narrow waterway linking the Red Sea with the Gulf of Aden, through which much of the world's oil shipments pass. Egypt and Saudi Arabia fear a Houthi takeover would threaten free passage through the strait.

Yemen crisis: Who is fighting whom? - BBC News
 
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NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
I think that I would need to be an expert in Middle Eastern politics to fully grasp the essay, but I think that the author makes it reasonably clear that Middle Eastern conflicts are made worse by the 'US' and 'THEM' mentality of Sectarianism. Unfortunately, the Sectarian divides seem to be so complex and so convoluted that few people can make sense of them, least of all outsiders. For this reason, outsiders (like the US Forces) should always stay out of Middle Eastern conflicts when possible and just let them run their course for fear of the exacerbating the problem.

The conclusion of the author is good as it promotes the obvious idea of side-stepping religion to build non-sectarian national institutions.

In my next article on this topic, I will discuss how we got here, the crisis of Sunni identity that sits at the heart of these conflicts, and how Western and, in particular, American policy should change to accommodate the realities of the Middle East and to focus on building and reinforcing non-sectarian national institutions and national forces.

However, there is a problem to the authors goal - the Islamic system is not geared to allow the separation of national institutions from religious ideology. In fact, the system of Islam is directly opposed to this simple ideal. At every available opportunity the Islamic system will seek to shape civil and criminal law in its own image. Politicians who oppose the Islamic system will lose political power, and politicians who collude with the Islamic system will gain political power.

So it's all very well to 'focus on building and reinforcing non-sectarian national institutions and national forces', but this can only really happen if the Islamic system is first drained of its power. The simplest and best way of doing this is to fund and promote Science in all its forms, and complain bitterly when atheists, agnostics, and apostates are locked-up or threatened. It's not a quick strategy, but grass-root strategies never are.
This was the best part of this entire post.
 

hendrix

Well-known member
I think that I would need to be an expert in Middle Eastern politics to fully grasp the essay, but I think that the author makes it reasonably clear that Middle Eastern conflicts are made worse by the 'US' and 'THEM' mentality of Sectarianism. Unfortunately, the Sectarian divides seem to be so complex and so convoluted that few people can make sense of them, least of all outsiders. For this reason, outsiders (like the US Forces) should always stay out of Middle Eastern conflicts when possible and just let them run their course for fear of the exacerbating the problem.

The conclusion of the author is good as it promotes the obvious idea of side-stepping religion to build non-sectarian national institutions.



However, there is a problem to the authors goal - the Islamic system is not geared to allow the separation of national institutions from religious ideology. In fact, the system of Islam is directly opposed to this simple ideal. At every available opportunity the Islamic system will seek to shape civil and criminal law in its own image. Politicians who oppose the Islamic system will lose political power, and politicians who collude with the Islamic system will gain political power.

So it's all very well to 'focus on building and reinforcing non-sectarian national institutions and national forces', but this can only really happen if the Islamic system is first drained of its power. The simplest and best way of doing this is to fund and promote Science in all its forms, and complain bitterly when atheists, agnostics, and apostates are locked-up or threatened. It's not a quick strategy, but grass-root strategies never are.
I don't really agree with a lot of the author's opinions. The point of linking you to the article was that it shares some of your views - for example it is indeed critical of sectarianism (well, who isn't?). except it's far more balanced and actually is reconcilable with modern history. You can take what you will from the article really.

It's really nice to say "we'll just promote Science and Equality and meme our way to peace" but far more difficult to actually have an understanding of the area and think of ways in which people can actually work towards these nice-sounding goals.

Basically, it's not good enough to say "I think that I would need to be an expert in Middle Eastern politics to fully grasp the essay" and then also claim to have the solution in the same post.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Basically, it's not good enough to say "I think that I would need to be an expert in Middle Eastern politics to fully grasp the essay" and then also claim to have the solution in the same post.
If Middle Eastern politics is inherently tied to religion, and watson isn't an expert in Middle Eastern politics, then he isn't an expert in religion either. QED. We can forever take his opinions with a grain of salt (if we haven't already).
 

hendrix

Well-known member
Of course I take his opinion with a grain of salt. I'm just hoping to expand his horizons a little.

And I don't mean that in a patronising way.
 

watson

Banned
Of course I take his opinion with a grain of salt. I'm just hoping to expand his horizons a little.

And I don't mean that in a patronising way.
As a heads-up, what horizons am I expanding exactly?

If the best minds can't unpick the Israel-Palestine problem, failed to understand the 17 year Lebanese Civil War etc then they'll have no price in finding a short or medium term solution to the current issues facing the Middle East.

So I don't mind admitting that Middle East politics is very difficult to grasp because I am apparently in good company.

What I do know for certain is that cultural identities that centre around religion make the individual easily offended and unusually volatile on a whole raft of issues. This state of mind is counter-productive when trying to find a peaceful compromise between conflicting parties. In fact, it's antagonistic.
 
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hendrix

Well-known member
As a heads-up, what horizons am I expanding exactly?

If the best minds can't unpick the Israel-Palestine problem, failed to understand the 17 year Lebanese Civil War etc then they'll have no price in finding a short or medium term solution to the current issues facing the Middle East.

So I don't mind admitting that Middle East politics is very difficult to grasp because I am apparently in good company.

What I do know for certain is that cultural identities that centre around religion make the individual easily offended and unusually volatile on a whole raft of issues. This state of mind is counter-productive when trying to find a peaceful compromise between conflicting parties. In fact, it's antagonistic.
You can't be bothered learning about the complex issues so instead you'll make wide-sweeping statements with little utility to anyone. Can you not see how that comes off as insincere?

Even though I find most of your sources to be wrong, if you're actually reading them properly you should know enough not to make the silly argument you're making here. Appealing to futility on this issue is beneath even the poorest of sources that you frequently cite. We're not going to cure all cancers in the near future, so why even try? Moreover, in this case failures of policy in the Middle East are failures of policy (or more nefariously, the workings of amoral politicking), not necessarily failures of knowledge.

I'll be the first to admit that I barely scratch the surface of understanding all of the political groups and agendas of the region. I'm not claiming to have the answers. I am looking and reading and putting forward my best thoughts and ideas.
 

watson

Banned
You can't be bothered learning about the complex issues so instead you'll make wide-sweeping statements with little utility to anyone. Can you not see how that comes off as insincere?

Even though I find most of your sources to be wrong, if you're actually reading them properly you should know enough not to make the silly argument you're making here. Appealing to futility on this issue is beneath even the poorest of sources that you frequently cite. We're not going to cure all cancers in the near future, so why even try? Moreover, in this case failures of policy in the Middle East are failures of policy (or more nefariously, the workings of amoral politicking), not necessarily failures of knowledge.

I'll be the first to admit that I barely scratch the surface of understanding all of the political groups and agendas of the region. I'm not claiming to have the answers. I am looking and reading and putting forward my best thoughts and ideas.
Micro-management of the Middle East by politicians, academics, and generals has produced few positive results in more than a century.

Therefore, there seems little point in finesse when the entire Islamic paradigm needs to be, and should be, brought crashing down - not by the sword, but by the pen.

There are now enough atheists, agnostics, and sceptics in the Middle East to be harnessed into a viable movement that can ultimately challenge the hegemonic power of the Islamic System. These brave people should be encouraged and aided at every available opportunity.

But for some reason foreign politicians prefer to fire rockets at people and communities as if rockets can produce lasting positive change. They should have realised by now that the battles which really matter are purely ideological.
 
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hendrix

Well-known member
Micro-management of the Middle East by politicians, academics, and generals has produced few positive results in more than a century.

Therefore, there seems little point in finesse when the entire Islamic paradigm needs to be, and should be, brought crashing down - not by the sword, but by the pen.

There are now enough atheists, agnostics, and sceptics in the Middle East to be harnessed into a viable movement that can ultimately challenge the hegemonic power of the Islamic System. These brave people should be encouraged and aided at every available opportunity.

But for some reason foreign politicians prefer to fire rockets at people and communities as if rockets can produce lasting positive change. They should have realised by now that the battles which really matter are purely ideological.
Evasive, deceitful and disingenuous.

Can you tell me why I should even bother with you Watson? Can you give me one ****ing reason?
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Micro-management of the Middle East by politicians, academics, and generals has produced few positive results in more than a century.

Therefore, there seems little point in finesse when the entire Islamic paradigm needs to be, and should be, brought crashing down - not by the sword, but by the pen.

There are now enough atheists, agnostics, and sceptics in the Middle East to be harnessed into a viable movement that can ultimately challenge the hegemonic power of the Islamic System. These brave people should be encouraged and aided at every available opportunity.

But for some reason foreign politicians prefer to fire rockets at people and communities as if rockets can produce lasting positive change. They should have realised by now that the battles which really matter are purely ideological.
What they need is a Royalistic empire to rule and oppress them again eh?
 

watson

Banned
Evasive, deceitful and disingenuous.

Can you tell me why I should even bother with you Watson? Can you give me one ****ing reason?
So you can keep up with the times Hendrix.

Invisible Atheists

The spread of disbelief in the Arab world

BY AHMED BENCHEMSI
April 24, 2015

Despite the risks and the social and political challenges they’re facing, all the atheist activists I interviewed said they were confident that the future of the Arab world belongs to secularism. Willoughby told me that “atheism is spreading like wildfire” in the Middle East. Brian Whitaker views it as “the symptom of a much bigger thing, which is the battle against oppression.” The booming Arab underground music scene is another example of the irresistible impetus for change that is quietly transforming the Middle East and North Africa. A full cultural revolution will probably take some time. Speaking about his country, Abdel-Samad said, “I think secularism is a certainty, not just a possibility, for Egypt’s future. All that remains unclear is what price the country will pay first. History tells me blood.”

https://newrepublic.com/article/121559/rise-arab-atheists
 

hendrix

Well-known member
Why don't you just start your own thread if you want to talk about atheism?

ffs I know a bit about atheism in the Arab world and I actively listen to various artists from that underground music the article mentions.

Sick and tired of your bullshit.

Why do you even bother to hide your motives? **** this.
 
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watson

Banned
Why don't you just start your own thread if you want to talk about atheism?

ffs I know a bit about atheism in the Arab world and I actively listen to various artists from that underground music the article mentions.
Sick and tired of your bullshit.

Why do you even bother to hide your motives? **** this.
I guessed that you might, which is why I posted the link in the first place.

These 'underground' movements are worth mentioning because they will be an important driving force behind any positive change in the Middle East, and in combating pseudo Islamic groups like ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood etc. They are the way forward when the existing governments and religious systems are so corrupt and anti-human.

I would have liked to hear more about the 'underground' scene in the Middle East from you - but apparently you have other ideas.
 
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