Regarding Communism

[Burgey]

Working for whom though? I think that's a question worth asking (though a different one to that at hand).

 

[Ausage]

Working for whom though? I think that's a question worth asking (though a different one to that at hand).

As many people as it's possible for any economic system to work for.

 

[Burgey]

I don't know that that's the case tbh, but in fairness I'm a bit too busy atm to probably give this the lengthy discussion it deserves.

 

[hendrix]

Hold on, if an economy of a nation is dependent on some way from stealing from other nations, how is that not a relevant thing to bring up?
.

Because capitalism that's capitalism plus nation statism, whereas Ausage is talking about a fundamental feature of communism that doesn't require nationalism or imperialism.

 

[Uppercut]

It's not just an optics thing though. The state is far better equipped to mete out oppression and violence. The absolute worst an individual can do pales in comparison to the capability of the state. That's true for violence/oppression but it's also true for an extremely wide range of negative human behaviours too. The state is just better at being ****.

Communism gets pinned with responsibility for the worst actions of it's actors because force is at the core of it's ideology. Forget about the moment to moment justifications, involuntary redistribution of wealth IS the core tenant of the ideology. There's no way to do that without force. There's a laundry list of Communist states that have maintained power by brutally subjugating their own people to back up this argument too.

The comparisons with Imperialism are also off the mark. Aside from the long bow drawn to connect Capitalism to Imperialism (or the whataboutery involved in bringing it up at all), comparing the destruction wrought by nations against other nations is not an apples to apples comparison. Humans have been subjugating other tribes/nations since we swung down from the trees, Communism's subjugations are against it's own populace and when we're talking about the system of governance a nation uses it's the only metric that matters.

It's not an optics thing, it's a framing thing. States have no agency independent of the individuals that constitute them. They're just one of many ways of pooling power. You speak as if they're living beings.

The end of the last paragraph shifts the debate a bit. Ftr I don't think Communism is a good system of government. I think Burgey is basically right.

 

[Burgey]

It's not an optics thing, it's a framing thing. States have no agency independent of the individuals that constitute them. They're just one of many ways of pooling power. You speak as if they're living beings.

This is a good point.

The end of the last paragraph shifts the debate a bit. Ftr I don't think Communism is a good system of government. I think Burgey is basically right.

But not so good as this

 

[Ausage]

It's not an optics thing, it's a framing thing. States have no agency independent of the individuals that constitute them. They're just one of many ways of pooling power. You speak as if they're living beings.

The end of the last paragraph shifts the debate a bit. Ftr I don't think Communism is a good system of government. I think Burgey is basically right.

Well sure, but your earlier post implied that the key difference between decentralised and centralised power structures is framing. I don't agree. I think the more decentralised power is the less capacity there is for that power to be used for oppression/violence (the extreme ends of the spectrum being individual/state). The comparison was only used to frame that concept.

 

[Uppercut]

Well sure, but your earlier post implied that the key difference between decentralised and centralised power structures is framing. I don't agree. I think the more decentralised power is the less capacity there is for that power to be used for oppression/violence (the extreme ends of the spectrum being individual/state). The comparison was only used to frame that concept.

Right, my intended point was just that the evidence so far presented to support this argument has been flawed.

So you're an anarchist?

 

[Spark]

Yeah I'm really, really not sure about that one-dimensional spectrum there.

 

[Ausage]

So you're an anarchist?

No. Probably closer to a minarchist (though I hate that word) but I'm not a zealot about it and I think getting there (if it's even possible) is a process humanity will take some time with. Some form of collective power is required for a functioning society but it's an extremely dangerous tool that should be limited to very specific functions.

 

[indiaholic]

New Chinese communist propaganda

https://youtu.be/M0lJc3PMNIg

 

[hendrix]

New Chinese communist propaganda

https://youtu.be/M0lJc3PMNIg

Not really communist propaganda tbh.

It's mainly targeting foreign countries with a goal to open up trade as much as possible. It's more of a trade propaganda than anything else.

 

[Spark]

Yeah regardless of what you think about its government, the Chinese economic system has not been recognisably Marxist at all in a long time now.

 

[indiaholic]

Not really communist propaganda tbh.

It's mainly targeting foreign countries with a goal to open up trade as much as possible. It's more of a trade propaganda than anything else.

I should have added the phear emoji.instead of the laughing one i guess.. Was being sarcastic.

 

[Ausage]

Has there ever been an even remotely good piece of government produced music?

 

[Uppercut]

Has there ever been an even remotely good piece of government produced music?

I don't think so, but then they rarely try to make any. Totalitarian states are often cultural wastelands.

Hell of a lot more good left-wing music than right-wing, though.

 

[Ausage]

Hell of a lot more good left-wing music than right-wing, though.

Yeah, this is true across creative arts generally tbh. Creative personality traits match up better with the left than the right.

 

[Spark]

Has there ever been an even remotely good piece of government produced music?

That depends what you mean by "government produced":

But ofc part of what makes it great is that it quietly subverts its own mandate, so it probably doesn't count.

 

[hendrix]

haha yeah was just gonna mention shostakovich

 

[Spark]

I will say though that a bunch of patriotic "folk tune" style songs written in the Soviet Union during WW2 are actually quite fun in their own right: