Selfish

[sledger]

Yeah personally I think it's a charge better aimed at certain forms of traditional conservatism, which are explicitly based around the retention of old privileges and social hierarchies that benefit themselves, rather than libertarianism. There's obviously been an overlap in the last 50-60 years, but as the current post-liberal fad shows, not necessarily an axiomatic one.

And in any case I'm definitely of the belief that most ideologies full stop are defined around group self-interest in one way or another. Just depends on which group you identify with.

Indeed.

Almost all ideologies have this idea at their core imo. They just dress it up differently.

 

[Daemon]

Yes, but everyone is like this some of the time. And if a term can apply to everything/everyone it may as well apply to nothing.

I mean if you're going down that route you might as well throw out like half of all adjectives in the dictionary

 

[sledger]

I mean if you're going down that route you might as well throw out like half of all adjectives in the dictionary

Probably not a bad idea tbh.

 

[Uppercut]

Probably not a bad idea tbh.

What's the subtext?

 

[sledger]

Well, just that wordiness and unambiguous unnecessary words/language often impede communication and development of ideas rather than enhance them.

I'm aware I am perhaps the worst person in the world to be making such an observation though, haha. The latest update to MS Word means that about 70% of what I write is flagged as "PASSIVE VOICE".

 

[Uppercut]

Well, just that wordiness and unambiguous unnecessary words/language often impede communication and development of ideas rather than enhance them.

I'm aware I am perhaps the worst person in the world to be making such an observation though, haha. The latest update to MS Word means that about 70% of what I write is flagged as "PASSIVE VOICE".

Haha I mean, what prompted you to make the thread? You already know what selfish means. It's a perfectly cromulent word.

 

[sledger]

Haha, read an article by Oscar Wilde about socialism.

And also I just have a fecund imagination.

 

[cpr]

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

I just have a fecund imagination.

Put the PhD's away lads, some of us only have mere bachelors.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha I mean, what prompted you to make the thread?

He just wanted to troll the usual suspects IMO. I was more amused by the fact that Burgey managed to word his juicy bite on this rancid bait in such a way as to counter-bait others. This is why he's an ATG.

 

[Anil]

Except she hated libertarians. She was an arch-capitalist for sure but that isn’t the same thing. I’m not taking a ‘she’s no true libertarian’ stance like some nutters probably do to someone like Ron Paul. This is a woman who was at odds with Rothbard, and complained about libertarians almost as much a disgrace you do. She wrote some decent novels and had some good views but again, not libertarian.

Carry on with empty rhetoric instead of refuting points, that’s okay.

i understand the similarities but what are the significant differences between objectivism and libertarianism?

 

[Spark]

i understand the similarities but what are the significant differences between objectivism and libertarianism?

Objectivism is more a moral philosophy than a political one, and it basically holds that the supreme and only valid moral purpose for an individual human is individual improvement. So basically selfishness raised to both means and ends. Libertarianism just says that individual liberty is the maximal ideal, to one degree or another. Clearly the former is compatible with the latter, but the latter doesn't necessitate believing the former.

As I keep telling Cribb, I don't actually think selfishness is what's behind the more toxic and nasty subsets of the modern-day libertarian right.

 

[Anil]

Objectivism is more a moral philosophy than a political one, and it basically holds that the supreme and only valid moral purpose for an individual human is individual improvement. So basically selfishness raised to both means and ends. Libertarianism just says that individual liberty is the maximal ideal, to one degree or another. Clearly the former is compatible with the latter, but the latter doesn't necessarily necessitate believing the former.

As I keep telling Cribb, I don't actually think selfishness is what's behind the more toxic and nasty subsets of the modern-day libertarian right.

got it thanks, that kind of aligns with what i thought as well, actually they are both more of moral philosophies, aren't they...the economic and political end-result of both ideologies would be something akin to laissez faire capitalism...? i know rand was a purist (obnoxiously so) from a morality perspective...but even so her hating libertarianism sounds strange which is why i was trying to understand why she would feel that way...

 

[GIMH]

Probably more accurate to say she hated libertarians than libertarianism. Cribbage could explain it better but no doubt he cbf

 

[harsh.ag]

Biggest difference is that libertarianism is mostly a political philosophy of an existing state regarding matters of public policy while objectivism plays a lot more attention to personal morality and conduct, and the source and derivation of such morality and conduct. It is more of a complete, sort of integrated philosophy where the curtailment of government powers come from not just the principles of liberty and property, but from individual morality itself which gives birth to these principles in the first place.

I used "existing state" above when it comes to libertarianism because objectivism is far more compatible with "enlightened" civilizations taking over "primitive" ones than libertarianism is.

There, are, of course, many other small differences (esp with the anarcho-capitaists, I would presume).

 

[Flem274*]

As I keep telling Cribb, I don't actually think selfishness is what's behind the more toxic and nasty subsets of the modern-day libertarian right.

i suspect the human desire to dominate drives the alt right, which i guess is a sub category of selfishness, but what's your theory?

oh just seen you specifically say libertarian right. oh well, im still interested to hear you extrapolate.

 

[Spark]

i suspect the human desire to dominate drives the alt right, which i guess is a sub category of selfishness, but what's your theory?

oh just seen you specifically say libertarian right. oh well, im still interested to hear you extrapolate.

their dislike for the state is fundamentally because they see the state as the primary driver of drivers for social and political equality for women, black people etc, which is the keystone of their philosophy.

see also, with suitable modifications: nimby anti-immigration, anti-development "progressives"

 

[silentstriker]

Okay, rather than arguing whether she was or wasn’t, let me frame it another way. Saying libertarianism is fundamentally selfish is incorrect IMO, but if you just look at Rand then I can see why you’d get there. But for me that misses the point.

Libertarianism: "I’m on board; pull up the lifeline."

 

[harsh.ag]

Libertarianism: "I’m on board; you shouldn't be prosecuted if you pull up the lifeline."

ftfy

 

[silentstriker]

Ie. let me get away with my selfishness and, as you're drying yourself off, excuse that selfishness by saying you're actually doing a favor to the drowning masses by pulling up the lifeline. It's actually brilliant. You get to be a dick, and then get to take the moral high ground about it.

 

[GIMH]

Ah, SS’s monthly ‘talking total bollocks’ visit