Should George Washington be wiped from History?

[Burgey]

In 1939?

They're always late to the wars which matter, and always kicking off the ones which don't. Shits me to tears.

 

[DanJamson]

how do you wipe someone from history?

 

[Athlai]

In 1939 the US had a pitifully small army, like 16th-19th depending on who you ask, 180k (it was 8 million at the end of the war)
Their navy was immense though, second only to the UK. It was however split between two oceans, and you'd say in the Pacific the Japanese may have been slightly stronger, and in the atlantic the French.

The U.S. industrial machine was also probably right up there in 1939. I'd say ahead of Germany/Soviets (who would have been well ahead of the U.S. come 1941).

 

[Burgey]

Yes, their failure to get up and about early on and mobilise their vast resources to join the show is disappointing tstl.

 

[Burgey]

how do you wipe someone from history?

 

[NZTailender]

In 1939 the US had a pitifully small army, like 16th-19th depending on who you ask, 180k (it was 8 million at the end of the war)
Their navy was immense though, second only to the UK. It was however split between two oceans, and you'd say in the Pacific the Japanese may have been slightly stronger, and in the atlantic the French.

The U.S. industrial machine was also probably right up there in 1939. I'd say ahead of Germany/Soviets (who would have been well ahead of the U.S. come 1941).

At the beginning of the war, the US army was smaller than Greece's army. Greece got steamrolled by the Wehrmacht in a few weeks (after kicking the **** out of the Italians. The Greek army was well regarded by the Germans despite being overwhelmed; they fought hard).

The US Navy had a bunch of WWI era battleships. The period between 40 and end of 41, when they were lend-leasing equipment to the UK was basically them prepping for war without being in it. They could develop weapons under the guise of selling them, which appeased the anti-war crowd, whilst safeguarding them in terms of actually catching up to the rest of the world in terms of production output.

The basic armaments they had when they entered the war proper was really **** compared to Germany and Japan. They started really turning things around in late 42/early 43 when you start seeing things like the Corsair enter service, which had started being developed in '38.

 

[Athlai]

At the beginning of the war, the US army was smaller than Greece's army. Greece got steamrolled by the Wehrmacht in a few weeks (after kicking the **** out of the Italians. The Greek army was well regarded by the Germans despite being overwhelmed; they fought hard).

The US Navy had a bunch of WWI era battleships. The period between 40 and end of 41, when they were lend-leasing equipment to the UK was basically them prepping for war without being in it. They could develop weapons under the guise of selling them, which appeased the anti-war crowd, whilst safeguarding them in terms of actually catching up to the rest of the world in terms of production output.

The basic armaments they had when they entered the war proper was really **** compared to Germany and Japan. They started really turning things around in late 42/early 43 when you start seeing things like the Corsair enter service, which had started being developed in '38.

Everyone had WWI era battleships basically, almost everyones navies were somewhat outdated when WW2 came into the fore, they didn't realise how poorly the new battleships would be when up against aircraft carriers in a naval conflict.

The US had 5 aircraft carriers in 1939. And 2 of them were Yorktown class which was pretty much the best anyone had at the time.
Royal navy had 6 (all but 1 was effectively a WW1 aircraft carrier)
French 1
Japanese 4 fairly modern top of the line carriers and 5 light aircraft carriers

 

[Athlai]

Like it's actually crazy to think how massive an impact all 3 of the U.S. Pacific carriers being out at sea was when looking at Pearl Harbour.

By that time they had 7 in total and losing Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga in that combat would have had an incredible impact on the war. It would have almost certainly changed the battle of Midway. 2 of the 3 carriers the U.S. used in that all important battle wouldn't have existed!

 

[Athlai]

The Japanese would have likely been given a year or two longer on the offensive before the American juggernaut beat them back... Hawaii would have been captured... Australia would probably have been very very badly harassed, potentially even a limited invasion. We probably would have something like a North Japan (communist) and south Japan (yank) divide like you see in Korea. and Korea would ALL be North Korea.

 

[S.Kennedy]

The American army in those days was tiny, sixteenth in the world, and had to borrow all of its equipment from the allies: it wore British Tommy helmets and operated French chauchats.

No, in 1917, but as others have said it had similar problems in World War 2 also, but at least it had its own artillery and its own distinctive helmet (the M1 arrived 1941).

 

[S.Kennedy]

The Japanese would have likely been given a year or two longer on the offensive before the American juggernaut beat them back... Hawaii would have been captured... Australia would probably have been very very badly harassed, potentially even a limited invasion. We probably would have something like a North Japan (communist) and south Japan (yank) divide like you see in Korea. and Korea would ALL be North Korea.

How would that affect Shield cricket?

 

[Athlai]

How would that affect Shield cricket?

You'd currently be captained by Luke Ronchi in this darkest of timelines.

 

[Spark]

Didn't this have something to do with George Washington? How on earth did we go from that to the Great War? Although speaking of the Yanks they were torn up during the Meuse-Argonne offensive during the Hundred Days, proof of the stubbornness of the German army at this late stage.

In fairness, this discussion was infinitely more interesting than the original thread topic.

 

[DanJamson]

Like it's actually crazy to think how massive an impact all 3 of the U.S. Pacific carriers being out at sea was when looking at Pearl Harbour.

By that time they had 7 in total and losing Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga in that combat would have had an incredible impact on the war. It would have almost certainly changed the battle of Midway. 2 of the 3 carriers the U.S. used in that all important battle wouldn't have existed!

Almost if they knew about the attack beforehand

 

[NZTailender]

Everyone had WWI era battleships basically, almost everyones navies were somewhat outdated when WW2 came into the fore, they didn't realise how poorly the new battleships would be when up against aircraft carriers in a naval conflict.

Indeed, but the immenseness of their Navy shouldn't be coupled with effectiveness, as the Royal Navy found out with Hood and Repulse.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Britain buggered herself up the arse by signing the London Naval Treaty in 1930.

 

[Burgey]

I read a very interesting piece in the Advocate this morning rightly lamenting the removal of Ivan Milat's statue at Belangalo Stare Forest.

 

[watson]

I read a very interesting piece in the Advocate this morning rightly lamenting the removal of Ivan Milat's statue at Belangalo Stare Forest.

I recommend the following book - 'Gettysburg: A Meditation on War and Values'.

https://www.amazon.com/Gettysburg-Meditation-Values-Kent-Gramm/dp/0253211360

Perhaps when you've read read something of American history you may form a different opinion.

 

[watson]

The doyen of modern writers on the Civil War....

 

[watson]

And something by the great Ken Burns.....