The reason the alt-right exists...

[brockley]

If you want the poor and refugees to miss out,than thats a very sad case indeed.
Secular charities are specialized and not accross the board.
The christian charities are accross the board.
Small churches which is 80 % can't afford pastors,how will they afford tax.
Unting church pay their ministers below the minimum wage,believe you me knowing ppl working in the industry its not good now,let alone if theypay tax.
Some churches may fold,they are folding as it is.

 

[Ausage]

If they want to do charity work, then fine. Let them. But that's not all they do. They use donations to acquire political power, to prosthelytise, to purchase land and property, to influence education, and a multitude of other things.

You've already stated that charity would not exist without the churches; that is factually untrue and a morally reulsive thing to say.

Much of the bold applies to some charities too tbf. Would you argue for Greenpeace to lose their tax exempt/DGR status? I'd argue "influencing education" is done by the religious body politic more than it is specific churches too.

 

[Spark]

Much of the bold applies to some charities too tbf. Would you argue for Greenpeace to lose their tax exempt/DGR status? I'd argue "influencing education" is done by the religious body politic more than it is specific churches too.

How would you argue this? Charities might influence what the body politic feels should be taught, but churches are literally providers of education. Can't really get more "influential" than that.

 

[brockley]

Schools for Catholics run at a local level.
They will have cuts now due 2 Government Gonski.
The administration is done by the department.
The Independent lobby influences non Anglican non Catholic schools.But think some works is done at a local level.

It would be a facist move to tax general charities run by churches.
As I said majority of charities church based,and the poor respond to them so the poor would be the 1's who suffer.
For me megachurches should be tax as they are a business run by pastors and money CEO'S and have questionable practices.
Hitting 80% of churches would be fatal.Imagine what would happen in country areas and cities areas as well.

 

[Ausage]

How would you argue this? Charities might influence what the body politic feels should be taught, but churches are literally providers of education. Can't really get more "influential" than that.

I took MF's comment to mean religious influence on broader/secular education. They obviously have absolute influence over what's taught at religious schools, but I don't see an issue with that. Religious education isn't branded as anything it's not (afaik).

 

[Spark]

I took MF's comment to mean religious influence on broader/secular education. They obviously have absolute influence over what's taught at religious schools, but I don't see an issue with that. Religious education isn't branded as anything it's not (afaik).

I don't disagree with the last part, but I still don't get how churches literally running a significant part of the education system doesn't count as a massive amount of influence on the system as a whole.

 

[Ausage]

I don't disagree with the last part, but I still don't get how churches literally running a significant part of the education system doesn't count as a massive amount of influence on the system as a whole.

I'm not sure religious schools influence secular education (though I'd be interested in some reading), but even if that were the case, the popularity of religious schools is a downstream effect from the desires of it's members. As in, they're popular because a large amount of people want a religious education.

 

[Spark]

I'm not sure religious schools influence secular education (though I'd be interested in some reading), but even if that were the case, the popularity of religious schools is a downstream effect from the desires of it's members. As in, they're popular because a large amount of people want a religious education.

Well, sometimes. I think it's more common that people just feel the local Catholic school is just plain better, the religious aspect is very much secondary. There are a lot of people who aren't Catholic who send their kids to (local) Catholic schools, and of course the richer private schools often have a religious (Anglican) component to them too but I would be surprised if that had major bearing in the decision making of parents overall.

But it's more because they have a significant stake in the system, so they get a pretty solid voice at the table when stuff like syllabuses, teaching standards and methods etc are discussed, as obviously in Australia that has to be consistent across the state.

 

[Ikki]

Not only should churches be exempt but so too should everybody else .

And I don't get the education aspect as being a reason to take away their tax exemption. You are simply asking for everything to be a tool or puppet of the state. If people want to donate/pay to certain organisations to promote certain ideas then that is their prerogative. Promote the opposite if you disagree.

As an aside, I've seen a lot of people **** on religious institutions (and often for legitimate reasons) but this shouldn't be confused with all people involved in them as a whole who do very noble and charitable things. People have an unwarranted respect for government doing the right thing yet the churches/mosques/etc are filled with people who actually are motivated to do the right thing and who don't get their funding through force. They help so many unfortunate people and it is a shame how much the respect to these institutions have swung the other way.

 

[Spark]

It can't be overstated just how destructive the child sexual abuse scandal has damaged the reputation of church in this country (I'm not gonna speak to America for now, because there's an entirely more complex discussion with respect to the evangelical right). Bloody hard to keep up your moral authority as an institution whose entire basis is having moral authority when you spend decades covering for people who rape kids. It is a shame at a local level, because I know first-hand that local churches do good work, have little to do with this stuff and actually do a good job of staying out of partisan political squabbles which is a nice change, as well as their vital role in providing a meeting-point and societal bridge for new migrant communities which are often quite religious.

But their deeper record as institutions is pretty indefensible over the last 20, 50, 100, 200, 500 years. And the tone-deafness of people like the Archbishop of Melbourne who have decried, for decades, any sort of legal advances for gay people whilst muddying the waters at any turn on thousands upon thousands of kids being abused in their own house is pretty appalling.

 

[Ausage]

Well, sometimes. I think it's more common that people just feel the local Catholic school is just plain better, the religious aspect is very much secondary. There are a lot of people who aren't Catholic who send their kids to (local) Catholic schools, and of course the richer private schools often have a religious (Anglican) component to them too but I would be surprised if that had major bearing in the decision making of parents overall.

But it's more because they have a significant stake in the system, so they get a pretty solid voice at the table when stuff like syllabuses, teaching standards and methods etc are discussed, as obviously in Australia that has to be consistent across the state.

Well sure, but that's still an informed choice on the part of the parent. For example, I don't think it would be fair for a parent to complain about a mandatory bible studies class as if it were a secular school. They know the state of play.

As to a broader influence, perhaps. I dunno, I just think it'd be a very subtle thing at that level anyway. Not to mention if they're popular enough to draw in the non-religious, are they not doing something right? Perhaps the broader system should be learning a thing or two, no?

Not only should churches be exempt but so too should everybody else .

Heh, I was going to go there a couple of times throughout the thread.

 

[Spark]

Well sure, but that's still an informed choice on the part of the parent. For example, I don't think it would be fair for a parent to complain about a mandatory bible studies class as if it were a secular school. They know the state of play.

As to a broader influence, perhaps. I dunno, I just think it'd be a very subtle thing at that level anyway. Not to mention if they're popular enough to draw in the non-religious, are they not doing something right? Perhaps the broader system should be learning a thing or two, no?

You're mistaking me saying they're influential for me saying they're a bad influence.

 

[Ausage]

It can't be overstated just how destructive the child sexual abuse scandal has damaged the reputation of church in this country (I'm not gonna speak to America for now, because there's an entirely more complex discussion with respect to the evangelical right). Bloody hard to keep up your moral authority as an institution whose entire basis is having moral authority when you spend decades covering for people who rape kids. It is a shame at a local level, because I know first-hand that local churches do good work, have little to do with this stuff and actually do a good job of staying out of partisan political squabbles which is a nice change, as well as their vital role in providing a meeting-point and societal bridge for new migrant communities which are often quite religious.

But their deeper record as institutions is pretty indefensible over the last 20, 50, 100, 200, 500 years.

Yeah completely agree. They've handled consistently awfully.

Quite apart from the morality of their terrible response has been the lack of strategic thinking about the issue. I can't think of a single issue that has driven more people away from the church in my lifetime and quite likely much longer. I don't think it's a stretch to say it could be the downfall of the religion.

 

[Ausage]

You're mistaking me saying they're influential for me saying they're a bad influence.

No I know you're not. Just harking back to MF's originally negative tone against said influence.

 

[brockley]

Spark no doubt the full recommendations of the Royal Commission should be enacted.
In my deonomination of you confess a crime,the pastor is at liberty to report it.If not legislated 2 act.
The rules is tight,which is a good thing.


As said the biggest offenders have been the mainline churches.Thats their issue to deal with.And so it should.
Schools not really a charity in defintion,I don't know how you would class them.
I think in christian world ppl are abhorred of the abuse,and report when can.
I personally made a report,but for legal reasons cannot disclose it.It was a Pentacostal church the police have the info.BTW it was 2nd hand reports so not much can be done with it.

 

[Ikki]

But their deeper record as institutions is pretty indefensible over the last 20, 50, 100, 200, 500 years. And the tone-deafness of people like the Archbishop of Melbourne who have decried, for decades, any sort of legal advances for gay people whilst muddying the waters at any turn on thousands upon thousands of kids being abused in their own house is pretty appalling.

All that you've written is true and well documented. I just think our collectivising their moral guilt in the matter has had negative consequences. Yes, their leadership has covered up a lot of horrendous stuff but treating religious institutions as one big monolith is wrong IMO and has created the kind of environment where we do not look at the good so many individuals within it do. The irony is those that criticise institutions for pretending they are pure are in effect now demanding their own purity tests be passed.

The reality is any institution with some significant power is bound to have a leadership that abuses it. It's the nature of power and wishing to keep a positive public perception up. You can concentrate on hating that facade or meeting ordinary people giving up their time because they genuinely want to do good in the world. It's cliched - and often we become cynics because of what we witness - but there are still a lot of good people.

 

[Spark]

The institution of the churches have far worse on their record than covering up child abuse though. A loooot worse

 

[Ausage]

Not to mention we (rightly) regard paedophilia as a far more serious crime than virtually any other. It's far more serious than your average abuse of power imo.

That said, I agree with the general sentiment of there still being plenty of good people doing good work in institutions. It's unfortunate for those people but completely understandable that many in the broader community view the church with suspicion.

 

[Spark]

Not to mention we (rightly) regard paedophilia as a far more serious crime than virtually any other. It's far more serious than your average abuse of power imo.

That said, I agree with the general sentiment of there still being plenty of good people doing good work in institutions. It's unfortunate for those people but completely understandable that many in the broader community view the church with suspicion.

The heirarchical nature of the Catholic and Orthodox churches are important too. Even the Protestant churches have inherited a lot of this. What the leadership does matters, because ultimately it's the leadership that defines the entire organisation and, more importantly, sets the doctrine that everyone from the Pope to the laymen is to follow.

 

[brockley]

As I said its a mainline issue,going back over 100 years and the culture is still there.
I was in an independent pentacostal church,no accountability.
I am in a 100 year old pentacostal church which dates back to AOG,,formed a 100 years ago.
My lesson don't be part of a breakaway church.Lesson learnt.
Even tho mine was formerly involved in the AOG.Its an established Pentacostal denomination.And No it doesn't preach Prosperity or Health doctrine.Altho some members do get on your goat about this.

On churches now,ppl that work with children,or take up a role in the church has 2 have a police check.And I agree with this.