The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[TheJediBrah]

As Flintoff needs time to get going so he can't bat lower than 5. Morgan and Buttler can each score a 100 after coming in around the 30th over mark so that settles the hitter roles.

Now because Flintoff is playing for a batsman you'd 4 other bowlers. Buttler is therefore at 7. Morgan would be at 4/5. That leaves #6 and a middle order position.

Tresco/Roy
Bairstow
Root
Morgan
Flintoff
Stokes
Buttler
Botham
Woakes
Swann
Gough

KP's SR for the era is pretty good so it's close between him and Morgan still. Lamb might be England's 2nd or 3rd best middle order batsman but it's hard to fit him in with Root and Flintoff being anchors already.

I don't think Stokes' spot is warranted. I get that he has had big-game moments but I'd put KP comfortably ahead of him. You don't need Stokes' bowling which isn't really that flash in white-ball cricket anyway and KP has him beat as a batsman.

 

[AndrewB]

All I remember of Beefy is him opening the batting and doing very little in the 1992 WC. Don't think he was bowling that much then either. But amazing England were also onto the pinch-hitting opener at the same time as NZ but we only remember the genius of Crowe. No one cares if Gooch was any good.

Botham took 16 wickets @19 in the 1992 WC (joint second most behind Akram), with an economy rate of 3.43 (5th best among bowlers who played in more than one match). Would not be an outrageous pick for a team of the World Cup just based on his bowling.

It was a tournament of two halves for him, though: his figures in his first 5 games were 50-5-133-10; in the last 5 they were 39-2-173-6 (and that's including 3-23 against Zimbabwe).

His batting was (as you say) nothing special to say the least - average 21, SR 58.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah I don't recall watching him bowl much, but if he was that good, that is awesome. Then it makes sense to have him at 8 I guess.

 

[vcs]

England's '92 team was full of fat blokes with mullets and moustaches.

 

[mr_mister]

pretty funny he struck at 58 while he was meant to be getting his team off to flying starts

 

[trundler]

I don't think Stokes' spot is warranted. I get that he has had big-game moments but I'd put KP comfortably ahead of him. You don't need Stokes' bowling which isn't really that flash in white-ball cricket anyway and KP has him beat as a batsman.

Bro you have to stop basically ignoring the reasoning behind a post and then saying "no do it anyway". It's aggravating as ****. Root at 3 is a lock, Morgan's numbers at 4 are insane, Freddie has to be 5 or higher, therefore the spot for a #6 is open. You want Fairbrother? Sure

 

[Red Hill]

Best averages by position (with a minimum of 30 innings in a position)


Bairstow (50)
Roy (42)
Root (55)
Morgan (47)
Stokes (49)
Buttler (37)


- 1 & 2 presented as one position
- Bell also averaged 42 (equal with Roy) as an opener but at a significantly lower SR
- KP averaged 116 at #5 but only 15 innings in that spot
- Buttler wins both the 6 and 7 slots
- On positional averages, it's their world cup winning team

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bro you have to stop basically ignoring the reasoning behind a post and then saying "no do it anyway". It's aggravating as ****. Root at 3 is a lock, Morgan's numbers at 4 are insane, Freddie has to be 5 or higher, therefore the spot for a #6 is open. You want Fairbrother? Sure

Not sure what you're getting at. You don't think KP would be any good at 6? You should have seen when he first burst on to the scene. Pretty sure he was batting at 6 (maybe a bit at 5) and it was phenomonal. He made making 80 (60) balls look normal at a time when it was still pretty rare.

Possibly it was just the form he was in at the time but KP batting 5 and 6 in this first year or 2 in the side was peak KP. He didn't get better moving up the order.

 

[bagapath]

botham's '92 WC bowling performance against india was one for the ages. i remember the young, aggressive tendulkar struggling to lay bat on ball and the old fox upping his game to show off to the future maestro his true skills. beefy did win a MoM award for that one wicket haul. And it didn't feel wrong at all - except to beefy himself, who wanted Robin Smith to be honored for his knock.

Edit: two wicket haul.

 

[harsh.ag]

Only Middle Order Bats & Pacers ATG Battle

Ponting
Smith
Bradman
Border
Waugh
Miller
Gilly +
Davidson
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

v

Worrell
Headley
Viv
Weekes
Lara
Sobers
Walcott +
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose

 

[TheJediBrah]

Only Middle Order Bats & Pacers ATG Battle

Ponting
Smith
Bradman
Border
Waugh
Miller
Gilly +
Davidson
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

v

Worrell
Headley
Viv
Weekes
Lara
Sobers
Walcott +
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose

heh anyone else think those teams look stronger without specialist opening batsmen?

 

[trundler]

No Lindwall is harsh

 

[harsh.ag]

No Lindwall is harsh

It is my side, so...

 

[honestbharani]

Only Middle Order Bats & Pacers ATG Battle

Ponting
Smith
Bradman
Border
Waugh
Miller
Gilly +
Davidson
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

v

Worrell
Headley
Viv
Weekes
Lara
Sobers
Walcott +
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Ambrose

y u no use Sachin?

 

[TheJediBrah]

y u no use Sachin?

Don't think he was Australian or West Indian

 

[morgieb]

y u no use Sachin?

Those were Australian and West Indian sides.

 

[h_hurricane]

Just imagining taking out Sunny G out of an Indian ATG XI and opening with middle order bats. No spinners as well.

Rahul Dravid
Cheteshwar Pujara
VVS Laxman
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
MS Dhoni
Kapil Dev
Amar Singh
Zaheer Khan
Mohammed Shami
Jasprit Bumrah

 

[morgieb]

On a unrelated note, can we find a nation's ATG side that goes as close to a real Test side as the India 2011 tour of Aus?

Sehwag
Gambhir
Dravid
Tendulkar
Laxman
Kohli
Dhoni
Ashwin
Zaheer
Yadav
Ishant

Though it made sense at the time it's crazy to see a side of that quality lose 4-0. You could make a solid argument that the only two changes to India's ATG team and that team is Gavaskar and Kapil in for Yadav and Gambhir (realistically it probably wouldn't be that close, but IMO the six best Indian batsmen of all-time is that Top 6 with Gambhir swapped for Gavaskar)

Certainly don't think the 84 WIndies side would be that close, nor the 01/02 Australian side or the 2012 South African side.

 

[honestbharani]

Don't think he was Australian or West Indian

Those were Australian and West Indian sides.

Honestly thought those were World XIs. Shows you how much Windies and Aussie sides dominate the ATG discussions in cricket.



Also shows you why it is wrong to sneak into a CW thread when you are in a meeting on the other window..

 

[stephen]

Does anyone else think that Ponting is the number 3 least suited to opening the batting of all the ATG number 3s out there? I mean given who he was coming in behind the "but he could be out there on the second ball" thing is a bit of a non starter. Over their careers Hayden and Langer only had 25 ducks between them.