The British Politics Thread

[GIMH]

Sad end to a cracking band. Shite if Serge tries to carry on without him

Obviously a very ugly and indefensible incident.

 

[sledger]

Probably quite lucky to avoid a harsher punishment, given some of the circumstances, notably presence of the child etc. Don't have a strong opinion either way myself, other than Kasabian are mediocre.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Disagree, and I ****ing hate the element of the left that is only in favour of restorative justice when it’s for the in-group.

imo the issue is that restorative justice is only applied to the in-group, the people who can speak for themselves and can afford the right lawyers?

 

[sledger]

Disagree, and I ****ing hate the element of the left that is only in favour of restorative justice when it’s for the in-group.

Is restorative justice actually relevant here though? As far as I can tell this isn't a part of the sentence.

 

[Uppercut]

imo the issue is that restorative justice is only applied to the in-group, the people who can speak for themselves and can afford the right lawyers?

Yes of course. But the solution is to apply sentences that are effective at reducing crime to everyone, not to extend pointless jail sentences to everyone. And definitely not to keep the two-tier system but with a different in and outgroup.

 

[Uppercut]

Is restorative justice actually relevant here though? As far as I can tell this isn't a part of the sentence.

Yeah maybe restorative isn’t the right word.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah maybe restorative isn’t the right word.

Your post confused me even more than it did sledger to the point where I just checked out and didn't bother tbh. This isn't exactly a topic I go days at a time without discussing either. Can you elaborate?

 

[sledger]

Yeah, I assume UC is looking for a term that encompasses a defendant having to make good on the wrongs they are responsible for, rather than just being penalised for the sake of punishment. I'm sure there is a word for this, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is.

Restorative justice involves putting victim and defendant in a room together and having a chat about how the latter wronged the former. Probably not well suited to domestic violence cases, one assumes.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, I assume UC is looking for a term that encompasses a defendant having to make good on the wrongs they are responsible for, rather than just being penalised for the sake of punishment. I'm sure there is a word for this, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is.

Restorative justice involves putting victim and defendant in a room together and having a chat about how the latter wronged the former. Probably not well suited to domestic violence cases, one assumes.

Rothbard (lol I know but shh) used "restitutive justice" I think, but even if we sub that in I don't really get his post.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Restorative justice involves putting victim and defendant in a room together and having a chat about how the latter wronged the former. Probably not well suited to domestic violence cases, one assumes.

could we get a couples therapist in the chat

But once things go as far as to the court you'd presume that the people involved do not really want to have a relationship any more.

 

[Uppercut]

Your post confused me even more than it did sledger to the point where I just checked out and didn't bother tbh. This isn't exactly a topic I go days at a time without discussing either. Can you elaborate?

Yeah what Sledger says is right.

I just don’t see how mass incarceration can possibly be a good solution to domestic violence (or anything). But you get there the same way you get to mass incarceration for anything else: outrage any time someone isn’t incarcerated for it. The element that winds me up is the overlap between ‘we need to stop mass incarceration’ and ‘WTF HOW DID HE NOT GO TO JAIL’.

 

[StephenZA]

But once things go as far as to the court you'd presume that the people involved do not really want to have a relationship any more.

Unfortunately, that is very not true.

The fact that the victim was not part and apparently even against the prosecution probably weighed greatly in defendants favour. It should not but it obviously has a real effect.

 

[Furball]

Did Stevie Wonder cut Nicky Morgan's hair?

 

[GIMH]

could we get a couples therapist in the chat

But once things go as far as to the court you'd presume that the people involved do not really want to have a relationship any more.

I remember this being discussed here at CW in the aftermath of Caroline Flack's death and once the complaint has been made, the partner who was assaulted doesn't have the automatic right of withdrawal. More likely simply down to how much their testimony is required. But without a victim statement, as I understand it, sentence will naturally be more lenient.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I remember this being discussed here at CW in the aftermath of Caroline Flack's death and once the complaint has been made, the partner who was assaulted doesn't have the automatic right of withdrawal. More likely simply down to how much their testimony is required. But without a victim statement, as I understand it, sentence will naturally be more lenient.

what's the difference between a complaint and a victim statement sorry?

but anyway yes these are extremely thorny issues to prosecute. but at the same time some form of independent institution of restitution needs to be available...

 

[StephenZA]

I don't think you even need an official complaint to be charged with assault. If the law deems you assaulted somebody even if that person does not want to lay a complaint you can still be charged. Victim statements are normally used in sentencing not prosecution? I am not 100 % on that though.

 

[sledger]

The views and wishes of the victim are, strictly speaking, irrelevant to whether a prosecution is brought against a defendant. The victim neither has the power to compel, nor stop, a prosecution.

As GIMH says though, if a victim is the only witness (as is very common in domestic abuse cases and similar), and they refuse to cooperate, the prosecution will never get off the ground, so the CPS just won't bother with it.

 

[sledger]

I don't think you even need an official complaint to be charged with assault. If the law deems you assaulted somebody even if that person does not want to lay a complaint you can still be charged. Victim statements are normally used in sentencing not prosecution? I am not 100 % on that though.

Yeah this is right. They are not admissible as evidence in a trial (i.e. when guilt/innocence is determined), but will be used as an aid to determine a defendant's sentence if they are convicted.

 

[GIMH]

what's the difference between a complaint and a victim statement sorry?

but anyway yes these are extremely thorny issues to prosecute. but at the same time some form of independent institution of restitution needs to be available...

When someone is assaulted, they have the opportunity to produce a victim statement talking about how the assault has impacted their life. They can choose to do this at the same time as giving the formal statement to the police but generally it is preferred that they do it further down the line when long-term impacts are better understood. It is written and provided to the judge. Not sure if they read it out to the court but I think they do. It's then factored into the overall sentence.

 

[StephenZA]

As GIMH says though, if a victim is the only witness (as is very common in domestic abuse cases and similar), and they refuse to cooperate, the prosecution will never get off the ground, so the CPS just won't bother with it.

Basically this man got caught because a child phoned the police and there was CCTV footage of what he had done. Would find if his lawyer had managed to suppress the footage then none of this would ever have come to light.

What really pisses me off about the sentencing is that it is implied that this is not the first time police have been called (alcohol fuelled or not) but that somehow he is a man of 'good character' who gives to charities means he gets a light(er) sentence.