Change my view

[sledger]

Even that is a bit dodgy.... the number of times I have had to ask for a new form because the bank/government official just auto ticked boxes is pretty common...

Pre-ticked boxes for this sort of thing are illegal now in the UK/EU under the GDPR, which might go some way to easing that dodginess.

 

[Uppercut]

If you change that to "tick here if you agree" and I think we're onto a winner.

I'd definitely fight to make organ donation the default option. At worst it might feel mildly manipulative but it'll make a major difference to participation rates, and you won't convince me that it crosses a red line significant enough to justify letting a lot of people die.

 

[sledger]

This isn't how it works in most developed countries using opt-in?

I'd have thought every person upon turning 18-21 would receive a letter asking them to indicate their preference online or something.

For opt-out in Singapore it's the same, you get a letter at 21 and you go online to deregister if you're a dick.

Can't actually remember what the default position is in the UK (though as above, I'm pretty sure opt-out/pre-ticked box approaches are now illegal), but yeah I recall seeing this sort of thing brought up on driving licence application forms and similar. Don't remember if there is a dedicated official letter or document for it etc.

 

[Uppercut]

This isn't how it works in most developed countries using opt-in?

I'd have thought every person upon turning 18-21 would receive a letter asking them to indicate their preference online or something.

For opt-out in Singapore it's the same, you get a letter at 21 and you go online to deregister if you're a dick.

From memory, in the UK you get asked about it when completing passport/driving licence applications and possibly on the census. It used to be opt-in but they might have changed it, I'm not sure. Cameron's government were very into Nudge theory.

 

[sledger]

I'd definitely fight to make organ donation the default option. At worst it might feel mildly manipulative but it'll make a major difference to participation rates, and you won't convince me that it crosses a red line significant enough to justify letting a lot of people die.

Fair enough. Prob not compatible with EU law though.

 

[StephenZA]

Pre-ticked boxes for this sort of thing are illegal now in the UK/EU under the GDPR, which might go some way to easing that dodginess.

Illegal here in RSA to.... does not stop them; who really actively follows up on this sort of stuff and complains. But I suppose we are less law-abiding here in SA than those within the UK. Or at least the 'watchdogs' actually do something and companies get fined.

 

[sledger]

Illegal here in RSA to.... does not stop them; who really actively follows up on this sort of stuff and complains. But I suppose we are less law-abiding here in SA than those within the UK. Or at least the 'watchdogs' actually do something and companies get fined.

I think people here are waking up to it. The Data Protection Regulator (ICO) has more teeth under the GDPR than most comparable regulators in other sectors, and has been stepping up its enforcement activities quite drastically recently.

Several raids undertaken wearing these super cool FBI rip-off jackets.

Desperate to get one of these tbh.

 

[StephenZA]

I think people here are waking up to it. The Data Protection Regulator (ICO) has more teeth under the GDPR than most comparable regulators in other sectors, and has been stepping up its enforcement activities quite drastically recently.

Several raids undertaken wearing these super cool FBI rip-off jackets.


Desperate to get one of these tbh.

I assume you are talking a jacket and not a raid here.....

 

[Daemon]

I think people here are waking up to it. The Data Protection Regulator (ICO) has more teeth under the GDPR than most comparable regulators in other sectors, and has been stepping up its enforcement activities quite drastically recently.

Several raids undertaken wearing these super cool FBI rip-off jackets.

Desperate to get one of these tbh.

Downside is that from afar people might just think you're one of those idiots shilling cryptocurrencies.

 

[Ikki]

Technically no one lives with the repercussions of donating their organs either

And @Harsh - why does it matter if you get taken for granted or not?

People donate their organs while they're alive as well. Once you create the standard that the person (or family) don't own the body and the state does, what stops some people rationalising donations for a certain organ while people are alive? These ideas are incompatible with those that safeguard our rights over our own person and their corruptness is something I am highly averse to.

Nobody is saying it should be legal.

Interested to hear why the public interest argument doesn't work here? @sledger too.

Aren't people arguing here that unless you opt-out they should be able to take your organs? It brings up so many issues (consent and capacity) that I find it morally repugnant.

There is no such thing as the public interest. There is no uniform blob of people that anyone has to cater to. Said public can, on their own, take up healthy lifestyles and invest in scientific research.

 

[Daemon]

People donate their organs while they're alive as well. Once you create the standard that the person (or family) don't own the body and the state does, what stops some people rationalising donations for a certain organ while people are alive? These ideas are incompatible with those that safeguard our rights over our own person and their corruptness is something I am highly averse to.

That's a big stretch tstl. If anything countries that are lacking donors are more likely to have a black market.

Aren't people arguing here that unless you opt-out they should be able to take your organs? It brings up so many issues (consent and capacity) that I find it morally repugnant.

You said taking people's organs without their consent. I understand now that you feel opt-out isn't consent.

There is no such thing as the public interest. There is no uniform blob of people that anyone has to cater to. Said public can, on their own, take up healthy lifestyles and invest in scientific research.

You need a heart transplant mate, that's really cold.

 

[zorax]

Because it's costly.

What does that mean

 

[straw man]

Refering back to the discussion on selling your organs, whether during life or after death as part of your estate, I think it's on the same spectrum with the selling of other bodily things/functions that (most) people would consider intensely personal and maybe part of their 'personhood'. i.e.
- prostitution
- commercial surrogacy
- selling yourself into slavery or indentured labour

I'm not expressing a definitive opinion on any of these except the last one (bad), but in all these cases there is something that in perhaps its most idealised state is a question of someone's rational and informed consent, but in reality and the vast majority of cases is inherently suffused with emotion, possibly degrading and leaves people prone to exploitation by those who would push/extort people for their own gain. Particularly in the absence of a strong welfare state which prevents people becoming so desperate that they might consider any of these options.

 

[Burgey]

That's a big stretch tstl. If anything countries that are lacking donors are more likely to have a black market.



You said taking people's organs without their consent. I understand now that you feel opt-out isn't consent.



You need a heart transplant mate, that's really cold.

He's prepared to pay for one.

Not using his own money of course, but still.

 

[Ikki]

That's a big stretch tstl. If anything countries that are lacking donors are more likely to have a black market.

Why is it a stretch? Literally the same thing happens in other aspects of our lives all the time.

I am not advocating a black market and my worry about the government having that power is not that it will create a black market - although it certainly could if regulations makes it too costly, it would be an inevitable outcome.

You said taking people's organs without their consent. I understand now that you feel opt-out isn't consent.

You need a heart transplant mate, that's really cold.

Maybe, but I don't see a better long term alternative. All I can do is try to live healthy, help my family and friends do the same and be productive enough so that I have the funds necessary in an emergency. Death is a guarantee in life and we can be delusional about it as much as we like, but someone has to foot the bill, financially and otherwise. I am not convinced of government or the calls of people who purport to act for the public good deciding these things.

Personally, I am going to donate my organs and I encourage others to do so.