CW decides the greatest test spinner ever. 43 names: Countdown/Rankings thread

[a massive zebra]

18th. Saqlain Mushtaq, 137 points

Featured on 19 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 5th (1 time)
Ranking within spin discipline: 6th of 13 (Right Arm OffBreak)
Test WPM ranking: 18th of 43 (4.24)


Widely known as the inventor of the doosra(I think it translates to 'the other one') one of the most controversial deliveries in cricket. But Saqlain, unlike many other proponents of the ball, never came under much scrutiny to my knowledge about the legality of his action when he bowled it. That is quite impressive. He was very effective with it too, surprising many a batsman when he first came onto the scene. He's the highest Pakistani to feature on the list. His bowling run-up and action were quite memorable, the little Fred-Flintstone twinkle toe steps before a halt at the crease and then release.

Perhaps held up slightly higher by pundits in ODI cricket, Saqlain still had a great test record, taking a little over 4 wickets a test while often having to share the spoils with Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib and sometimes his similar named partner in crime and rival for a spot Mushtaq Ahmed. His crowning moment in tests came in the fiercely contested 1999 series against neighbors India, where he took 24 wickets in 3 tests at 20.9 including 2 ten fers. He was critical in Pakistan winning that important series, a series dominated by spin(Kumble took his 10 fer during it).

Saqlain never reached those heights again but his only real struggles came against South Africa and in the West Indies, averaging over 40 in those two columns. It's been written that he a got little too obsessed with variations and may have started to over bowl his doosra, often starting a spell with it, maybe causing it to become a bit predictable. Saqlain faded quite early in the 21st century, playing his last test at the young age of 27. By that time he had already taken 208 wickets. Like Bosanquet he may accrued bonus points in this exercise for inventing a delivery, but more power to him for that. A fine bowler.

He was the modern reinventor of the doosra. Ramadhin bowled something to the same effect, a leg break with no noticeable change in action, in the 1950s.

 

[mr_mister]

^ah, I actually mentioned that in my Ramadhin write-up. Guess I forgot.

 

[mr_mister]

#16th. Ravi Ashwin, 176 points

Featured on 22 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 4th (1 time)
Ranking within spin discipline: 5th of 13 (Right Arm Offbreak)
Test WPM ranking: 5th of 43 (5.31)


According to the exercise, the 5th best off spinner ever and he's still got many years left to play. Ashwin has already taken 324 test wickets at 25.5, an average well under many of the Indian spin greats that came before him. He takes them at well over 5 a test too and strikes every 53 balls. In this batting dominated age of cricket Ashwin stands head and shoulders above everyone else in raw stats except for his spin partner Jadeja who only basically plays at home(and didn't even make this countdown). Ashwin has a poor average in Australia(avg 54 from 6 tests) and will get the chance to rectify that in a few months, though there's every chance it may get worse. His overall away record isn't bad, an average of 31 certainly isn't terrible. But on the home decks he plays so many of his tests on he is a beast and his stats show that. People think he's almost a shoe-in to take 500 test wickets and perhaps more.

225 home scalps from 36 tests @ 22.7. If you extend that record to Asia it gets even better, 268 from 43 at about the same avg.

In 2015 playing mainly in the SC he took 62 wickets @ 17 from just 9 tests. Then in 2016 he took even more wickets. The second half of his career has been enormous and he's bowled India to countless victories in the 4th innings of a test on those dusty asian minefields. The fact he's already made 16th spot while still active is crazy considering CW's typical stance on not properly rating a player as ATG til they're retired.

When watching Ashwin bowl in a 4th innings at home it always just seems like a matter of time before the batsmen will crumble to him. He has supreme confidence in his ability to out think and outfox his opponents and against left-handers especially he's nigh unplayable. I should add the ball turning square off those day 5 pitches helps as well, but I don't mean to take credit away from him. He's truly a great bowler and one of the youngest ever to achieve ATG status.

 

[Logan]

Unless his performance dips suddenly or he gets dropped for some other reason, I see him easily taking more than 500 wickets.

 

[mr_mister]

It was a bit conservative a guess I suppose.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wouldn't call Ashwin an ATG yet. Will be by the time he retires though unless he gets even fatter and his performance drops off.

 

[vcs]

Needs to produce some good away performances also. If Anderson's not an ATG, then it would be hard to make Ashwin's case.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah maybe I'm using that term too loosely. Have done too much writing today

 

[bagapath]

Rhodes lost his eyesight completely in the last few years of his life. Still he used to attend cricket matches accompanied by his daughter, when he would follow the game just by listening to the sound of willow on leather and comment on the proceedings.

There is a sweet anecdote of an elderly lady, on seeing the blind old man and the devoted daughter seated in a train, commenting that the girl should take her dad to a game of cricket or something and explain it to him not knowing that this man once ruled the playing field for three, four decades.

 

[Bolo]

Ashwin is very much a wait and see for me. He's a few good Sena performances away from being one of the very elite, but could also end up pretty far down the list.

Such an MVP either way though.

 

[stephen]

Ashwin's interesting. He's basically bowled at the same level as Lyon in the last Australian tour of India, but he'll always be rated way higher than Lyon. Lyon really does get shafted by bowling on Australian pitches. It will be interesting to see how people rate them both after retirement. There's no doubt that Ashwin is the best Indian-conditions bowler of all time but he really needs to step up overseas.

 

[trundler]

I fear His Roundness will be making an appearance soon...too soon on this list.

 

[Bijed]

Wouldn't call Ashwin an ATG yet. Will be by the time he retires though unless he gets even fatter and his performance drops off.

Imagine Herath existing and still posting this

 

[Logan]

Needs to produce some good away performances also. If Anderson's not an ATG, then it would be hard to make Ashwin's case.

What about Lillee? His stats outside Aus/Eng was pathetic.

 

[ankitj]

That sort of attitude could be taken by everyone in respect of every list as we all disagree with some placing. Won’t make it any less reasonable if the person you think should be number 1 isn’t.

What kind of non argument is that? Of course you can say that about every list for which you observe obvious patterns of tactical or blatantly biased voting. It just doesn't happen in every list.

 

[srbhkshk]

Ashwin's interesting. He's basically bowled at the same level as Lyon in the last Australian tour of India, but he'll always be rated way higher than Lyon. Lyon really does get shafted by bowling on Australian pitches. It will be interesting to see how people rate them both after retirement. There's no doubt that Ashwin is the best Indian-conditions bowler of all time but he really needs to step up overseas.

By his standards Ind - Aus last year was a poor series for Ashwin - he wasn't fit either. In any case I don't think one series can be used to make an argument for Lyon being as good as Ashwin, Lyon's record suffering due to playing in Australia is definitely a fair argument - but in the end Ashwin has won India at least 15 tests with his bowling - Lyon for better or worse hasn't and probably won't.

 

[trundler]

What about Lillee? His stats outside Aus/Eng was pathetic.

Lillee was basically untested outside Australia/Eng as has been pointed out before. Don't want to derail this thread though.

 

[Migara]

There's no doubt that Ashwin is the best Indian-conditions bowler of all time but he really needs to step up overseas.

Dunno, but it is hard for a spinner to do better than what Saqlain did to a ATG spin playing Indian lineup, probably the best ever in cricket. Ashwin hardly bowled to a such a lineup, even on Indian conditions. Closest would be they day when India tours Pakistan.

 

[Engle]

Christopher Martin-Jenkins in the Dec. 1986 issue of The Cricketer

" If ever a man deserved the place of honour on the cover of The Cricketer it is Abdul Qadir, for he alone, it sometimes seems, is keeping alive one of the game's great arts. "



After he skittled out the W.Indies for 53 with inning figures of 6/16 in an era dominated by pace and with the real danger of the game losing it's proponents of guile

 

[harsh.ag]

After he skittled out the W.Indies for 53 with inning figures of 6/16 in an era dominated by pace and with the real danger of the game losing it's proponents of guile

Honestly this seems like a thing only in the minds of the English, who hadn't (and still haven't) produced a good leg spin bowler since Freeman, and the Aussies, who probably felt the Windies pace battery had stolen their spotlight after Lillee and Thommo's demigoddery.

India had Sivaramakrishnan, with Hirwani soon to arrive. Admittedly not that good, but Chandra had only retired in 1979. Sometimes 8-9 years can seem like a lifetime though, must be said.