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India-Pakistan air conflict

ankitj

ankitj

Well-known member
trundler said:
This is dishonest and you know it. It's a muddy situation and you only have heroes and villains in hindsight. One man's Bhagat Singh is another's Guy Fawkes. Weird example but you get the gist.

I don't have a solution and I won't claim to have one but it's all ****ed top to bottom
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I will agree with you that there is some sort of "oppression" in Kashmir by India. That is generally a given when Army is involved. What is worth remembering though is Kashmiri separatist movement and heavy presence of Indian military didn't exist since 1947. It started around 1989-90 and it was not organic but engineered by Pakistan military to a large extent. That was also the time when atrocities on Kashmiri Hindus started. Before that it was to a great degree peaceful existence of Kashmiris under Indian union.

Also, Indian army is not exactly as ruthless as international observers are made to believe. Yes, there have been excesses as they always happen when army is involved. But there is a also a strict code that army is expected to follow and does follow. Just as an example, 1-2 days after Pulwama attack Indian military cornered and killed mastermind of the attack. But in the process lost 4-5 army men. This was not because the militant had any strategic advantage or had more weapons but because "civilians" were shielding him while also obstructing operation of Indian army. Army did not target the "civilians" even while suffering casualties.

And there are also stories you would have heard of Indian army working day in day out to rescue Kashmiris during flood even while being constantly abused by the same set of people during operations.
 
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weldone

weldone

Well-known member
shankar said:
This is getting into boring semantics about what a claim is and what a fact is so I'll stop here.
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Ok my target was a pole and I hit it with a pebble. There were no casualties, and I have no proof.

I'll be happy if at least there's an official announcement about such details about the 'target'. "We hit the target" means nothing regarding the claim.
 
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trundler

trundler

Well-known member
I would like a source on there not being a seperatist movement before the 90s. Anyway, at this point in time Pakistan Army cannot be solely blamed for the seperatist sentiments. They exploited it but the sentiment has developed organically as I said. Also, let's not get into the usual justification of transgression by downplaying the scale. I am open to the view that my perception may be unknowingly influenced by state propaganda but your views seem very Indocentric too.
 
trundler

trundler

Well-known member
What are the sane voices of Kashmir? I'd like to read up on then. By sane I obviously mean non-extremists.
 
harsh.ag

harsh.ag

Well-known member
If we are talking about just "this point of time", then on the basis of the current behaviour of the Indian Army in J&K, and given the continuance of Article 370, and given India's economic performance, my honest opinion is that the Kashmiris who want independence are dumb.
 
smalishah84

smalishah84

The Tiger King
I wonder how this episode will affect modi's election chances?

It certainly didn't go as he planned.
 
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ankitj

ankitj

Well-known member
trundler said:
I would like a source on there not being a seperatist movement before the 90s. Anyway, at this point in time Pakistan Army cannot be solely blamed for the seperatist sentiments. They exploited it but the sentiment has developed organically as I said. Also, let's not get into the usual justification of transgression by downplaying the scale. I am open to the view that my perception may be unknowingly influenced by state propaganda but your views seem very Indocentric too.
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It's a well known fact that after the end of Soviet Afghan war a bunch of Mujahedin and weapons used as proxies by Pakistan US combined were directed to Kashmir by Pakistan. Here are couple of sources I could find:

https://www.mo.be/en/article/battle-afghanistan-pakistan-and-kashmir
http://www.kashmirlibrary.org/kashmir_timeline/kashmir_files/hrw_arms.htm

It was this that changed the complexion of Kashmiri nationalism completely. In India it is referred to as a turning point routinely so we take it for granted. It was in response to this that in 1990 Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) was implemented in Kashmir which became the infamous tool for army excesses. Fact it was not needed/applied before also tells you something.
 
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D

Daemon

Well-known member
Lol. They certainly did nothing to stop the lie from propagating though, which does make one wonder.
 
harsh.ag

harsh.ag

Well-known member
Many spokespeople of BJP were on the news shows. I didn't watch any of them but almost certainly some of them must have reiterated the "we killed terrorists" line. Still no clue on what they actually hit, except "the target".
 
smalishah84

smalishah84

The Tiger King
Daemon said:
Lol. They certainly did nothing to stop the lie from propagating though, which does make one wonder.
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I thought the Foreign Secretary spoke for the govt. To be fair to him he never gave a number but said something along the lines of "large number of terrorists, their commanders blah blah eliminated"

Not the ideal election stunt it seems in hindsight
 
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Victor Ian

Victor Ian

Well-known member
In summary, India appealing for nothing followed by Imran sending a captive over.
 
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