What's happening in Turkey?

[hendrix]

Helen Clark and the rest of the western world have already picked sides, it seems.

 

[NZTailender]

Helen Clark and the rest of the western world have already picked sides, it seems.

Everyone's going to pay lip service to the 'democratic process'. A lot from what I've read don't even bother to mention Erdogan by name, just that the process must be respected.

Like I doubt any elected leader in the west would come out and say "gee, I'm sad that crook Erdogan didn't get overthrown. Oh well."

 

[NZTailender]

Using the blackmail card, too. Extradite Gulen because we always extradite terrorists at your request.

He has kind of set this up masterfully. All we need now is a rebel spokesman to conveniently name Gulen so he can be validated.

 

[Pothas]

Joining the EU in the next few days remember.

 

[Furball]

Using the blackmail card, too. Extradite Gulen because we always extradite terrorists at your request.

He has kind of set this up masterfully. All we need now is a rebel spokesman to conveniently name Gulen so he can be validated.

John Kerry knows what Erdogan is up to. He's said that the US will be happy to extradite if the Turkish government submit credible evidence.

 

[Furball]

Helen Clark and the rest of the western world have already picked sides, it seems.

No leader is going to come out and say 'it's a good thing that the army forcibly removed someone democratically elected'

 

[hendrix]

It's all about keeping religion out if politics and the mad clerics in their box. That's the main game.

Errr, you do know that Erdogan's government is an Islamic party?

No leader is going to come out and say 'it's a good thing that the army forcibly removed someone democratically elected'

What's the saying? "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all".

I mean, I guess they have to have a stance. But "democratically elected" is a stretch when they ban all critical media of them during the election and block the reporting of corruption to the tune of $100 billion, then remove the former president for being critical of the blackouts. And then build yourself this humble abode with taxpayer dollars.

 

[vogue]

Turkey says 6,000 detained over coup attempt as US relations fray
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ttempt-fethullah-gulen?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

6000 is a lot of people to detain... Getting a tad more fraught for the US.

 

[the big bambino]

Odds on this being a false flag so Erdogan can implement new laws or further consolidate his power?

Kudos to you. This is looking suspiciously like a set up

 

[Gnske]

I'd hope it was a false flag and not a genuine attempt given how **** it was.

If it wasn't then maybe Turkey deserves Erdogan.

 

[Furball]

Joining the EU in the next few days remember.

I can't believe how badly that was handled by Cameron.

 

[NZTailender]

I'd hope it was a false flag and not a genuine attempt given how **** it was.

If it wasn't then maybe Turkey deserves Erdogan.

As someone mentioned before it's entirely possible Erdogan knew it was going to happen and let it. Despite being described as 'well orchestrated' it looks everything but. Without backing and planning from the top generals it was doomed to failure. I mean, it's entirely possible it would've been a 'popular' revolution given the size of the Taksim square and countrywide protests in 2013, and those potential supporters heeded the peace council's advice and stayed home while Erdogan's supporters took to the streets. The media was also against it, when they possibly could've been an excellent tool for the council because of Erdogan's increasing censorship of them.

 

[hendrix]

If you make a coup attempt and fail within a day, there's only really 2 things that could have happened;
1. You're incredibly delusional about the military support you have.
2. It wasn't a genuine coup attempt.

 

[watson]

Turkey has a history of coup attempts and coups, so there is no reason to suspect that this wasn't yet another attempt to pull the government back into line. What would be unusual is if an Islamic Cleric living in the US had anything to do with it as the Military traditionally opposes political Islam.

Turkey coup: Erdogan cannot blame the military this time

Washington:*Stunning as it is, the Friday coup in Turkey is not unexpected because the generals have always reserved the right to step in, issuing course correctional warnings or taking over when they decide that the government has gone against the national interest.

President Recep*Tayyip Erdogan, initially*absent on holidays but now having rushed back to a divided city,*is warning that the perpetrators will face the "highest price".

The military will argue that it has been patient, giving Erdogan more than enough time and probably a few subtle warnings that he might have chosen not to hear, to appreciate that he had gone too far in grabbing all power for himself and his crony circle and that his mishandling of internal and regional conflict and crisis constituted a threat to the national interest.

Regional forces are buffeting Turkey, but much of its current instability springs from two domestic struggles that Erdogan sees as particular assaults on him personally – the bloody fight by Turkey's minority Kurds for autonomy; and the political activity of the Gulen movement, which has members across government and with which Erdogan once was aligned – but now accuses of seeking to undermine his authority.

Erdogan knows his country's history – in the second half of the 20th century the military stepped in four times…in 1960, in 1971, in 1980 and again in 1997. Looking at those approximate 10-yearly interventions, the generals would argue that this coup is long overdue.

Erdogan likes to think that the modern Turkish state is all about him. But history says it's all about Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, an Army general who modernised, secularised and westernised the modern Turkish state – of which he became the first president in 1923.His effort to marginalise religion was more effective in the cities than in the country but it held because of the military's self-appointed role as guardian of the Ataturk legacy.


Turkey coup: Erdogan cannot blame the military this time

 

[the big bambino]

From what I'm reading it appears the supposedly secular Erdogan is more "cleric" than the cleric himself.

 

[hendrix]

Watson is chasing his tail round and round trying to find someone who's a Muslim in Turkey as if it's some marvel. Erdogan's party is an Islamic party. The Military is largely Muslim. Turkey is an Islamic country.

 

[straw man]

It's safer than it's ever been.

The potential for conflict to spark and escalate is higher than any time post cold war, pre 9/11, and as bad as it's been most of the years post 9/11 afaics. Russia more belligerent. Same with Turkey. Israel too. Syria and Iraq failed states and groups like IS feeding off this. Clash of civilizations narrative getting stronger both in middle east and western countries too. Democratic nations electing or near-electing nationalistic reactionary leaders driven by fearful and angry populaces. Huge uncertainty in the Euro zone. I don't want to overplay this, it's not quite a powder keg waiting for a spark, however the number of actors that will provoke and amplify conflict rather than damping it down seems to be higher than ever; Erdogan just one example.

Clearly I did not mean immediate safety i.e. risk of getting murdered walking down the street.

Same thing with the percentage of people who die in violent conflicts.

There aren't as many horrific, large-scale and systematic massacres like Rwanda or Cambodia at the moment. This says nothing about the current risk levels for conflict.

 

[watson]

From what I'm reading it appears the supposedly secular Erdogan is more "cleric" than the cleric himself.

Well that's right. The problem is that Turkey will be at war with itself while Erdogan is in power because there will always be political conflict between Erdogan's Islamist movement and the Secularists who want to keep the State free of Sharia and all the nutcase Clerics that go with it. That is, maintain Ataturk's legacy.

Yet again, we see an example of the delusion of grandeur by Islamic politicians who want to install some kind of modern day Caliphate, big or small. In that specific regard there is not much difference between the Erdogan Government and ISIS.

Turkey wants to End Modern Ataturk Constitution, Go Back to Sharia: Says Parliament Speaker

27 April 2016

Turkey, an overwhelmingly Muslim country, should have a constitution based on Islam rather than a secular constitution, the speaker of the Turkish parliament has said in a speech. Secularism has been the cornerstone of modern Turkey for decades.

The founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, reshaped the collapsing Islamic Ottoman Empire in the early 20th century. He founded the state on Turkish nationalism and Western-style secularism, or separation of the state and religion.
However, the currently ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) apparently wants to get rid of one of the pillars of Kemalism ideology.

“We are a Muslim country and so we should have a religious constitution,” said Turkish Parliament Speaker Ismail Kahraman on Monday, lamenting that the name Allah is not mentioned even once in the country’s founding charter.

“Secularism would not have a place in a new constitution,” he said.

Kahraman was addressing an Islamic scholars and writers conference in Istanbul. As the head of the parliament, it’s Kahraman’s job to pen a new draft constitution for Turkey.

AKP has its roots in political Islam and has been pushing for constitutional amendments during its 13-year rule in Turkey. It wants to empower the office of president from a purely ceremonial function to a fully-fledged head of state. Such a reform would benefit incumbent President Tayyip Erdogan, who traded the prime minister’s seat for that of the president’s in 2014.

The reform was a major issue of last year’s general election, with AKP insisting that only strong presidential power can hold Turkey together against security threats such as the Kurdish insurgency. Critics say it would undermine Turkey’s civil rights and give dictatorial powers to Erdogan. Some say he wants to be a sultan, harking back to the Ottoman days.

Turkish secularism did not become absolute even after Ataturk’s reforms. The country has a special government body tasked with promoting Islam, the Diyanet, and funds religious teaching. But AKP champions of political Islam such as the 75-year-old Kahraman want a far greater role for their religion.

The Turkish opposition criticized the speaker’s words. Kemal Kilicdaroglu, the head of the secularist Republican People’s Party (CHP), said that political Islam is the reason why the Middle East is in the grip of sectarian violence.

“Secularism is the primary principle of social peace … Secularism is there to ensure that everyone has religious freedom, Ismail Kahraman!” Kilicdaroglu tweeted.

The speaker’s position was also opposed by the head of the parliament’s constitutional commission and fellow AKP member Mustafa Sentop, who said there were no plans to remove the concept of secularism from the future draft.

The majority of Turkey’s 78-million population is Sunni Muslim, according to Reuters. About a fifth is estimated to be Alevi, which draws from Shia, Sufi and Anatolian folk traditions. There are about 100,000 Christians and 17,000 Jews living in the country.
*
Turkey Wants to End Modern Ataturk Constitution, Go Back To Sharia: Parliament Speaker - AWD News

 

[hendrix]

Yet again Watson's obsession forces him to go off on a tangent chasing irrelevance

 

[the big bambino]

Not so sure. I think there is enough to worry about. Maybe I am overplaying fears over Erdogan's Islamist intentions but I think he has the ambition if not the ability to achieve an Islamist Turkey. Lets see.