What's happening in Turkey?

[hendrix]

Turkey is Islamic.

 

[the big bambino]

No ... Really?

 

[silentstriker]

The potential for conflict to spark and escalate is higher than any time post cold war, pre 9/11, and as bad as it's been most of the years post 9/11 afaics. Russia more belligerent. Same with Turkey. Israel too. Syria and Iraq failed states and groups like IS feeding off this. Clash of civilizations narrative getting stronger both in middle east and western countries too. Democratic nations electing or near-electing nationalistic reactionary leaders driven by fearful and angry populaces. Huge uncertainty in the Euro zone. I don't want to overplay this, it's not quite a powder keg waiting for a spark, however the number of actors that will provoke and amplify conflict rather than damping it down seems to be higher than ever; Erdogan just one example.

Clearly I did not mean immediate safety i.e. risk of getting murdered walking down the street.


There aren't as many horrific, large-scale and systematic massacres like Rwanda or Cambodia at the moment. This says nothing about the current risk levels for conflict.

Risk level means nothing. That's a theoretical problem. The actual facts are that the world is as safe as it has ever been in the history of the human race by any objective metric. Yeah, there's always a "risk" of war. But guess what? That was always true. And if anything, the risks used to be a lot higher in the past with all the undemocratic societies who could go to war on a whim.

 

[straw man]

Risk level means nothing.

I completely disagree.

 

[watson]

Turkey is Islamic.

But the constitution isn't, and that's the point I was making.

In fact there was a debate about the constitution last April in the Parliament between the Turkish PM and the Islamist Speaker of the House.

Mr Davutoglu said: "Secularism will feature in the new constitution we draft as a principle that guarantees citizens' freedom of religion and faith and that ensures the state is an equal distance from all faith groups."

Versus

Mr Kahraman said...: "We are a Muslim country... Secularism cannot feature in the new constitution."

Turkey Islam: PM issues secular pledge on new constitution - BBC News

As usual, secularism rarely sits well with the Islamic machine as it is always a direct threat to their political power and influence. It's a lot easier to control the masses if you have a State religion to beat them with.

 

[watson]

I completely disagree.

It is estimated that Ghengis Khan killed 40 million people during his reign. This doesn't sound too much but at the time it represented 10% of the World's total population.

In todays terms it would be like piling up the bodies of every man, women, and child in Continental Europe or the Middle East - then some.

Just a macabre thought to give some perspective.

 

[hendrix]

No ... Really?

yeah sorry I was being obtuse, it's just getting really boring talking to watson about this type of thing.

Democracy has already been compromised at this point so it seems a bit of a side-note to focus on this particular side of it.

 

[watson]

yeah sorry I was being obtuse, it's just getting really boring talking to watson about this type of thing.

Democracy has already been compromised at this point so it seems a bit of a side-note to focus on this particular side of it.

I honestly do listen to you Hendrix, and I enjoy reading the arguments that you present. I just so happen to disagree with you over key issues from time to time. That's all.

 

[hendrix]

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, it's just that you have such a singular focus.

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah but the focus is right in this case. I mean, it's one of many factors - like Erdogan stripping basic freedoms from the press and violently suppressing protests, but bringing back Sharia Law is one of his pet projects and one of the reasons why the military would intervene to protect the country from becoming a religious-based state. There's a difference between a country having a majority Muslim population and a country whose laws are based on Islamic law and not secularist ones. If Turkey adopted Sharia law it would have a massive impact.

 

[nightprowler10]

Yeah but the focus is right in this case. I mean, it's one of many factors - like Erdogan stripping basic freedoms from the press and violently suppressing protests, but bringing back Sharia Law is one of his pet projects and one of the reasons why the military would intervene to protect the country from becoming a religious-based state. There's a difference between a country having a majority Muslim population and a country whose laws are based on Islamic law and not secularist ones. If Turkey adopted Sharia law it would have a massive impact.

This is exactly right. There's a difference between a Muslim country and an Islamic country. Pakistan went through something similar in the late 90s when Sharif wanted to appease the Islamic parties and held a referendum to decide if we would implement Sharia Law. I don't recall what exact result was but people voted to stay with the status quo, which has outdated Islamic laws as it is.

 

[smalishah84]

I can't imagine Erdogan can pull that off i.e. bringing shariah law as the primary law source in Turkey. Seems well nigh impossible.

 

[NZTailender]

Erdogan is starting to Ceausescu. Never go full Ceausescu.

 

[hendrix]

I can't imagine Erdogan can pull that off i.e. bringing shariah law as the primary law source in Turkey. Seems well nigh impossible.

He can do whatever the **** he wants at this point since he's snuffed out all opposition and anyone critical of him.

Which is the bigger picture here: it's more about installing laws that guarantee him and his party complete power - which is what he's been taking steps towards for years.

 

[Burgey]

Jarryd Hayne's dreams of becoming Turkish PM have been squashed!

 

[the big bambino]

Back to American exile for him.

 

[watson]

So when all is said and done we have ended up with is little more than a pre-planned religious pogrom. A good old fashioned piece of Islamic sectarian violence with Gulen loyalists, Secularists, and the Army all being targeted.

God it's predictably boring.

After the failed coup, the crackdown.

The numbers of people arrested or thrown out of their jobs are eye-watering. From judges to teachers, civil servants to soldiers, the list is enormous. There are very real fears among Turks about what will come next.

So who is being targeted and why?

As soon as it became clear that the coup had failed, the crackdown began - first with the security forces, then spreading to Turkey's entire civilian infrastructure.

In the words of one Turkish columnist it was a "counter-coup" - a cleansing of the system, in the style of a coup, that had taken place in the past.

The express aim of the president is to "cleanse all state institutions". And the target is what he calls "the parallel state" - a movement headed by an arch-rival in self-imposed exile in the US, accused of plotting the coup.


Who is being purged?

The purge is so extensive that few believe it was not already planned. And there seems little chance that everyone on the list is a Gulenist.

The sheer numbers are sobering. Some 9,000 people are in custody and many more are out of a job. Although accurate details are difficult to come by, this is the current list:

7,500 soldiers have been detained, including 85 generals and admirals
8,000 police have been removed from their posts and 1,000 arrested
3,000 members of the judiciary, including 1,481 judges, have been suspended
15,200 education ministry officials have lost their jobs
21,000 private school teachers have had their licences revoked
1,577 university deans (faculty heads) have been asked to resign
1,500 finance ministry staff have been removed
492 clerics, preachers and religious teachers have been fired
393 social policy ministry staff have been dismissed
257 prime minister's office staff have been removed
100 intelligence officials have been suspended

The list may be incomplete because the situation is constantly changing. But it is clear that the purge has affected well over 58,000 people.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36835340

 

[watson]

I don't think that leftist atheists are the problem.

Turkish PM Erdoğan calls protesters atheists, leftists, terrorists

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said those who have taken to the streets in protest at corruption and graft allegations are “atheists and terrorists,” speaking at a rally in the western province of Balıkesir.

“We opened a boulevard in Ankara on Monday [Feb. 24] despite the [protests of] leftists, despite those atheists. They are terrorists, but the [main opposition Republican People’s Party] CHP is calling them ‘our youth,’” said Erdoğan at the Feb. 28 rally.

Erdoğan described the probe as a plot against his government, orchestrated by the Islamic scholar Fethullah Gülen, who has been residing in the United States for the past 15 years.

In the Balıkesir rally, Erdoğan also criticized Gülen for allegedly telling female students to remove their headscarves in order to be able to attend schools during the Feb. 28, 1997, post-modern coup attempt.

“He [Gülen] was saying you may not wear headscarves. Why do you [Gülen] get involved? Because he does not have any children,” he said, referring to the fact that Gülen is unmarried and has no children.

The prime minister had previously criticized the opposition Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) leader Devlet Bahçeli for not having any children or family.

Addressing the Balıkesir crowds, Erdoğan also once again called on people not to send their children to private prep schools, a considerable number of which are run by people close to the Gülen movement.

Turkish PM Erdo?an calls protesters atheists, leftists, terrorists - POLITICS

 

[watson]

At some point the bigotry of Islamist governments will have to realise that atheists in the Middle-East are a significant minority in their region, and growing exponentially thanks to globalisation.

.

Turkey blocks website of its first atheist association

It took less than a year for a Turkish court to block the website of the country’s first official atheism association.

The Atheism Association, the first of its kind in any Muslim-majority country, was officially founded in Istanbul’s Asian-side neighborhood of Kadıköy in April 2014. However, the Gölbaşı 2nd Civil Court of Peace in Ankara has finally moved to block the association’s website, according to the group’s statement on March 3, 2015.

As of March 4, Turkish internet users could not access www.ateizmdernegi.org without using tools to bypass blockings, such as a VPN.

The court ruling cites Article 216 of the Turkish Penal Law, which forbids “provoking the people for hate and enmity or degrading them.”

The association has issued a statement to criticize the blocking. “Three months ago, the European Space Agency managed to put Philae on a one-km wide comet named 67P, which has a speed of 135,00p km/h, after a 3,907-day-long journey to a location 500 million km away. Meanwhile, courts in Turkey are still busy blocking websites, citing laws with vague expressions and trying to make a certain belief dominate the others,” it stated.

The Atheism Association also described the court’s decision as “a historic example of accumulating legislative, executive and judicial powers in one hand,” claiming that Turkey is “drifting away from the level of modern civilizations as fast as its judiciary system drifts away from reason.”...

Turkey blocks website of its first atheist association - LOCAL

 

[Golfalert]

This is a good question...

How will this change Turkey oil distribution remains to be seen.