Is the world becoming more racist?

[Zinzan]

I honestly don't know mate.

 

[indiaholic]

Somebody can correct me if i am wrong but post 2009, manufacturing firms have returned to the united states in appreciable numbers.. They are not hiring as many people as before due to automation. The jobs that are being created are better paying ones but they are fewer in number. Many of the people who were unemployed due to factory shut downs have not been given adequate skills training to get these new jobs. I think your argument would be stronger if Trump acknowledged this and suggested apprenticeship and training programs instead of blaming China. It is absolutely rational to vote for your economic well being but I don't think people who voted for trump are doing that.

 

[watson]

Lots of interesting points being raised here.

My stance is quite clear to me now.

Yes Hilary is an awful person who has done awful things. She's corrupt, manipulative, war hungry. She's even quite possibly a sociopath. But to me, all that is a lot more acceptable than openly making racist/sexist/xenophobic remarks.

I think that's because to me, at the end of the day, things like wall street, the job market, taxes, money exchange hands in politics...all this stuff pales in comparison to Social issues.

The society you live in matters so much. No amount of infrastructure or job opportunities can make life bearable if you live every minute aware that you are considered a second-class citizen because of your race/religion/sexual preference. I can't imagine living my life knowing that my President has openly spoken out against people who look like me, or is intolerant to those who share my same beliefs.

And yes what the President/Head of a Nation says matters. It matters a hell lot. They address the nation in times of crisis. You learn about them and their predecessors in school. They are held up as representative of the community you live in, a sort of role model/epitome of the society and it's beliefs and values.

And I know this is kinda ****ed up for a massively large nation. One person can never adequately represent 300 million. Or 1.2 billion. Heck it isn't enough to even represent 10 thousand. But that is just the way it is. And those of us here in this thread talking about it will have questioned it and approached it from different angles and dissected it and maybe the role isn't as precious or impressive to us. But we are such a small tiny minority. The social influence a head of the nation holds is unquestionably large. Especially when that nation is the United States of America.

So yes, I don't give a **** that Hilary was crooked and corrupt and had blood on her hands. The current US president has openly spoken out against minority groups. He has sexually harassed women. He was endorsed by the ****ing KKK.

If I were a minority living in the USA, I'd be horrified. And I would give a **** if our economy rose by 2 points because he cut taxes and placed tarrifs on Chinese imports.

Americans are a minority group in a global sense as they represent just 4.4% of the global population. Australians represent a mere 0.33% of the global population.

So it all depends on how you define 'minority', and how you compare Trump and Republican voters to their global counterparts. By comparison they still come way out in front - by a country mile in fact. Ask any gay or Christian living in any Islamic society that you care to mention. Ask any minority living in China, Japan, Sri Lanka, or even Thailand. European-Africans currently living in South Africa or Zimbabwe are being ****ed-over by their nepotistic governments now infamous for their rampant corruption and 'reverse racism'.

Racism and discrimination is a global reality, and has always been a global reality, which is why borders were created in the first place, and why the politics of the 'progressive Left' is ultimately doomed to failure despite promising so much.

Very depressing I know, but that's just the way it is.

 

[harsh.ag]

Somebody can correct me if i am wrong but post 2009, manufacturing firms have returned to the united states in appreciable numbers.. They are not hiring as many people as before due to automation. The jobs that are being created are better paying ones but they are fewer in number. Many of the people who were unemployed due to factory shut downs have not been given adequate skills training to get these new jobs. I think your argument would be stronger if Trump acknowledged this and suggested apprenticeship and training programs instead of blaming China. It is absolutely rational to vote for your economic well being but I don't think people who voted for trump are doing that.

See, the facts don't matter. And I'm not trying to say this in a condescending manner.

What matters is that the people who voted for him thought the direction of the economy was bad and that establishment policies that Clinton personifies aren't going to work.

They went for the lottery that is Trump. They don't know macroeconomics and it's not about that, The 4.9 unemployment rate and the fact that that is supposed to be near the natural level of unemployment doesn't matter either. The nature of the job, prospects of a predictable upward career graph, and the nature of the local economy and community and neighbourhood matter as much.

Again, on these things, it is very much an anti-establishment vote. Don't think the people actually think they know how or if Donald's going to give them what they want.

 

[indiaholic]

Fair enough.

 

[Zinzan]

Somebody can correct me if i am wrong but post 2009, manufacturing firms have returned to the united states in appreciable numbers.. They are not hiring as many people as before due to automation. The jobs that are being created are better paying ones but they are fewer in number. Many of the people who were unemployed due to factory shut downs have not been given adequate skills training to get these new jobs. I think your argument would be stronger if Trump acknowledged this and suggested apprenticeship and training programs instead of blaming China. It is absolutely rational to vote for your economic well being but I don't think people who voted for trump are doing that.

You may very well be right, but here's the thing. I'm not necessarily saying Trump will pull out a sliver bullet & suddenly fabricate all these new manufacturing jobs. I was talking the mind & motivation of many of these voters, & the fact many feel they're in bad shape, and his talk of bringing back jobs provided some like hope to them, rightly or wrongly, & whether he actually achieves that or not.

 

[harsh.ag]

You may very well be right, but here's the thing. I'm not saying necessarily Trump will pull out a sliver bullet & suddenly fabricate all these new manufacturing jobs. I was talking the mind & motivation of many of these voters, & the fact many feel they're in bad shape, and his talk of bringing back jobs provided some like hope to them, rightly or wrongly, & whether he actually achieves that or not.

So, basically, my post, but worse.

 

[Zinzan]

So, basically, my post, but worse.

Just more succinct my dear fellow.

 

[zorax]

Everyone has different priorities when they vote, and whilst I respect that yours would be social issues, I also respect for others it could be about jobs or something else, yet you can't seem to see any other motivation from these Trump voters that isn't driven by racism.

Yea I said before, I didn't say they were driven by racism, but the fact that they were not deterred by it is very very worrying.

 

[zorax]

I mean really, how anyone can argue that one group of people shouldn't concern themselves with the discrimination/suffering/mistreatment/restricted rights of another group who share the same community as them is beyond me.

Sure you aren't driven by all the -isms and -obias we keep listing out, but to be tolerant to someone who preaches all this is just as bad.

 

[Black_Warrior]

So this has now been merged with the US Politics thread?

 

[Zinzan]

Yea I said before, I didn't say they were driven by racism, but the fact that they were not deterred by it is very very worrying.

Pleased to hear it.

I think we're all depressed this election cycle was so dire, that folks still, in their own minds, had valid enough reasons to vote for him, in spite of the shocking rhetoric.

Just making the distinction between that, and concluding Trump's victory makes Americans generally racist, or more so than previously as the thread asks.

 

[zorax]

Pleased to hear it.

I think we're all depressed this election cycle was so dire, that folks still, in their own minds, had valid enough reasons to vote for him, in spite of the shocking rhetoric.

Just making the distinction between that, and concluding Trump's victory makes Americans generally racist, or more so than previously as the thread asks.

FTR being tolerant of racism makes you complicit in it, and I think its fair to call a person complicit with racism a racist.

I understand that perhaps a bit harsh and not everyone will agree with it, but at the same time if we're ever going to be harsh on people for being indifferent, it should be for issues like these.

It's kind like how you either are Feminist or a Sexist. There is no middle ground. Either you think women are worthy equal rights and opportunities, or they aren't. You can't be indifferent. You can't straddle the fence.

 

[Zinzan]

FTR being tolerant of racism makes you complicit in it, and I think its fair to call a person complicit with racism a racist.

I understand that perhaps a bit harsh and not everyone will agree with it, but at the same time if we're ever going to be harsh on people for being indifferent, it should be for issues like these.

It's kind like how you either are Feminist or a Sexist. There is no middle ground. Either you think women are worthy equal rights and opportunities, or they aren't. You can't be indifferent. You can't straddle the fence.

You seem to be bouncing around an awful lot on this. Are you saying anyone voting for Trump has to be a racist or aren't you?

After just saying..

Yea I said before, I didn't say they were driven by racism

 

[Spark]

You can be complicit in racism without being driven by it. In fact I'd personally argue that's extremely common, people buying into a racially biased system and defending it from anti-racist pressure whilst having no personal racial animus themselves.

 

[Ausage]

Look, I'm no Kasparian fan. I loathe TYT with a passion.

But the irony here is incredible. You've been saying, quite fairly, that elite liberals have been condescending in their approach to discussing issues with the right and that they've unfairly labeled trump voters stupid and racist. And yet here you are, saying she has a tiny brain. Walk the talk, guys.

Steady on. My consistent point has been that the right is not inherently racist and a lot of the criticism is misplaced, lazy and actually counterproductive, not that there aren't people worth calling out as ****** people for whatever reason. I'm not a moral relativist. Steve Bannon and Ben Shapiro are very different quantities.

And c'mon, "I'M ****ING BETTER THAN YOU! RIGHT?" is exactly the kind of stupidity that I've been critical of and Kasparian is a loud, regular voice in that regard. That's completely consistent with my previous criticisms. Sounds like you actually agree with Zinzan and I but felt like playing the man rather than the ball.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You can be complicit in racism without being driven by it. In fact I'd personally argue that's extremely common, people buying into a racially biased system and defending it from anti-racist pressure whilst having no personal racial animus themselves.

Indeed. The majority of trump voters haven't voted for him thinking "**** them Muslims n Mexicans". But they've not been deterred (atleast not enough to not vote for him) by his racist remarks. I think it's absolutely fair to label them complicit.

 

[Ausage]

Anyway, while we're on the subject of the elites not really understanding the working class, I thought this was pretty bang on.

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

 

[harsh.ag]

Fwiw, the working class does not understand itself. That is becoming more and more apparent. Apart from "wanting a better life", which is true across the board for everyone, they don't have much of an idea of their place in a world with new technology and global forces. Wanting to go back to blue-collar/white-collar jobs with a clear upward graph of rising wages, bonuses, and/or promotion isn't understanding yourself.

Someone write about that please instead of another "the elites don't understand the working class".

 

[Ausage]

Fwiw, the working class does not understand itself. That is becoming more and more apparent. Apart from "wanting a better life", which is true across the board for everyone, they don't have much of an idea of their place in a world with new technology and global forces. Wanting to go back to blue-collar/white-collar jobs with a clear upward graph of rising wages, bonuses, and/or promotion isn't understanding yourself.

Someone write about that please instead of another "the elites don't understand the working class".

Yeah those dopey trogs need to just know their place and get over it. How dare they try to shape their lives as best they see fit.

Look I agree with you to an extent. The world isn't the same as it was and as things change people will need to find new ways to provide value, however that kind of dismissive attitude is exactly the kind of insensitivity that the article highlights as a driver of someone like Trump. I think that no one from any class (you and I included) really knows how best to unravel this mess, but offhandedly dismissing the understandable concerns people have about their place in this world is a short path to a bloody future.