Top Five Cricketers from each country

[Test_Fan_Only]

Is this ratio at peak or overall career ratio?

Their careers. If we start picking parts of careers then what parts count as being enough.

 

[Test_Fan_Only]

You are listing the ratios they ended their careers on, not where they peaked.

This method is very generous to botham on the one hand. Almost nobody peaks at the start of their careers. Botham gets assessed purely on peak while everyone else gets assessed on peak plus everything before.

On the other hand, it is not bothams ratio so much as his phenomenal output that is impressive- runs and wpm. We will see many looking comparable when in reality they are nowhere near.

I assessed Botham over his whole career and he fell short of the minimum of 1.5 that put on the list as I stated in my post. I cannot control what other choose to do.

 

[Bolo]

Only few selects him in an AT 11

I assessed Botham over his whole career and he fell short of the minimum of 1.5 that put on the list as I stated in my post. I cannot control what other choose to do.

I misunderstood you. I thought you were trying to post the best ratio they achieved at some point in their careers.

 

[smalishah84]

Their careers. If we start picking parts of careers then what parts count as being enough.

I thought you were comparing these ratios to the 2+ that Aussie tragic had come up with at Botham's peak

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Speaking of Botham's peak, in his first 25 tests he had 1336 runs @ 40.48 and 139 wkts @ 18.52.

Has anyone else even come close to having a batting average more than double his bowling average?

Between 1961 and 1968, 8 years
Sobers 33 tests
3106 runs at 63.38
125 wickets at 27.93

If only peaks are considered , Waqar is the greatest bowler.

If 27 X 5 + 14 X 100 makes him greatest AR ,
Then Muralitharan is Next only to Bradman , 67x5 from 133 tests
Hadlee not far behind 36 X5 , 2 X 100 from just 86 matches .


Botham failed against stronger opponents compared to other great allrounders.

Just check Kapil and Botham stats without England and India ( where Kapil was in disadvantage of playing against a strong team and Botham benefitted from playing a weaker team , so to make it equal.. )

Botham 88 tests bat 28.97 ball 28.76
Kapil 103 tests bat 28.73 ball 27.77

Kapil and Botham averaged almost same with bat and Kapil averaged slightly better with ball , despite playing longer and in a weaker team with no support in unfavorable conditions.

 

[ankitj]

Botham at his peak was better than Kapil but when you take their entire careers, they are much closer than people think.

Botham at his peak was better than Bradman.

 

[Test_Fan_Only]

I thought you were comparing these ratios to the 2+ that Aussie tragic had come up with at Botham's peak

I was not, I was doing whole careers.

However I have tried to work out Sobers peak, with really is with the bat, his bowling averages in each series were up and down throughout his whole career.
Between the start of 1958 and the end of 1969, a period of 11 years Sobers played 53 tests.
In that period he averaged
Batting 71.57
Bowling 31.96
This is well over the ratio of >2 that aussie tragic put up for Botham over twice the number of tests and over a greater period of time.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

With a major difference, Botham was taking 5.5 wkts per test instead of <2

Sobers managed 4 wickets per test while averaging 65 with bat for 6-7 years , I think.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Look, we get that you have a massive hard on for Kapil but no amount of stats manipulation or bollocks will change the fact that there was a gulf between him and Botham.

I don't think , Kapil was that better. There is only a marginal difference between them. Just like comparing Lara and Sachin or Gavaskar and Viv.

 

[Dendarii]

Bradman was close to 3 times higher. Okay that is a bit silly because he only took 2 wickets at test level.
Those I have found at 1.5 or better. Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Pollock, Steve Waugh, Armstrong and others I checked did not reach that mark over their whole careers.

Sobers 1.69
Kallis 1.69
Procter 1.67 - obviously from a very small sample
Billy Bates 1.66
Imran Khan 1.65
Miller 1.61
Hammond 1.54
Billy Barnes 1.50

And another bit of silliness Darren Lehmann 1.64. He only took 15 test wickets but at the amazingly low average of 27.46 for the crap he bowled. Extremely flattering.

Even sillier - Mark Boucher. His figures for the only match in which he bowled were 1/6, so his bowling average of 6 and batting average of 30.3 gives him a ratio of 5.05.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Averaging under 30 with ball in a calendar year

Botham - 7
Kapil - 10

30+ with bat

Botham - 7
Kapil - 12

 

[smalishah84]

Averaging under 30 with ball in a calendar year

Botham - 7
Kapil - 10

30+ with bat

Botham - 7
Kapil - 12

how many years are they averaging under 25 with the ball?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

how many years are they averaging under 25 with the ball?

Botham 4
Kapil 4

 

[h_hurricane]

Look, we get that you have a massive hard on for Kapil but no amount of stats manipulation or bollocks will change the fact that there was a gulf between him and Botham.

What gulf are you talking about ?
Batting

Kapil : 5248 runs @ 31.05
Botham : 5200 runs @ 33.54

Bowling

Kapil : 434 wickets @ 29.64
Botham : 383 wickets @ 28.40

Botham a bit better in that stats and the better batsman. However, if he ever was to take those 50 wickets which separate him and Kapil, there is a definite possibility that his bowling average would have ended up worse than Dev. Botham played very few tests in his 30s there by reducing the dent on his record following a significant decline.

Kapil was significantly superior to Botham against WI which many conveniently ignore.

On most days I would prefer Botham over Kapil but it is very close.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

What gulf are you talking about ?
Batting

Kapil : 5248 runs @ 31.05
Botham : 5200 runs @ 33.54

Bowling

Kapil : 434 wickets @ 29.64
Botham : 383 wickets @ 28.40

Botham a bit better in that stats and the better batsman. However, if he ever was to take those 50 wickets which separate him and Kapil, there is a definite possibility that his bowling average would have ended up worse than Dev. Botham played very few tests in his 30s there by reducing the dent on his record following a significant decline.

Kapil was significantly superior to Botham against WI which many conveniently ignore.

On most days I would prefer Botham over Kapil but it is very close.

If not for Botham's 4 year peak , he is nowhere near Kapil or other great ARs for rest of his career , which is 10 years.

Last 10 yrs

Botham 44 tests
1971 runs at 28.98
121 wkts at 36.79

Kapil 65 tests
2604 runs at 32.55
182 wkts at 31.38

 

[Malcolm]

Speaking of Botham's peak, in his first 25 tests he had 1336 runs @ 40.48 and 139 wkts @ 18.52.

Then he played 2 series against Windies and his batting average dropped to 31.

 

[Borges]

What gulf are you talking about ? ... On most days I would prefer Botham over Kapil but it is very close.

I think it is the gulf between his own massive hard on for Botham and someone else's massive hard on for Kapil. Though, the two aforementioned hard ons are also very close.

 

[smalishah84]

I think it is the gulf between his own massive hard on for Botham and someone else's massive hard on for Kapil. Though, the two aforementioned hard ons are also very close.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I think it is the gulf between his own massive hard on for Botham and someone else's massive hard on for Kapil. Though, the two aforementioned hard ons are also very close.

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/54441-ian-botham-vs-kapil-dev-13.html

Interesting posts from hit wicket.

 

[vcs]

I've always wondered whether the correct plural is "hard ons" or "hards on".