Top Five Cricketers from each country

[aussie tragic]

My thoughts on this have been mentioned before, but anyone who wants to denigrate Warne as a cricketer needs to get a hold of the 2005 Ashes series on video and watch just how great he was. The guy was a force, almost supernatural in his will to win games for Australia (with the ball and bat). And I'm not even being hyperbolic there. He was really THAT good.

I also thought he was great until I found out he got paid $2 million for doing I'm a celebrity and he was allowed smoke breaks outside camp cameras and he was even allowed to have advanced hair treatments while there

 

[smalishah84]

Speaking of Botham's peak, in his first 25 tests he had 1336 runs @ 40.48 and 139 wkts @ 18.52.

Has anyone else even come close to having a batting average more than double his bowling average?

yep

Stats analysis: Imran Khan | Cricket | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[Dendarii]

Speaking of Botham's peak, in his first 25 tests he had 1336 runs @ 40.48 and 139 wkts @ 18.52.

Has anyone else even come close to having a batting average more than double his bowling average?

Kallis didn't quite manage it but came reasonably close, with the closest probably being after 111 tests when he had a batting average of 58.20 and a bowling average of 31.28.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[Dendarii]

And not a fast bowling allrounder, but after 16 tests Aubrey Faulkner had a batting average of 47.37 and a bowling average of 22.95.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[aussie tragic]

Kallis didn't quite manage it but came reasonably close, with the closest probably being after 111 tests when he had a batting average of 58.20 and a bowling average of 31.28.

With a major difference, Botham was taking 5.5 wkts per test instead of <2

 

[TheJediBrah]

I also thought he was great until I found out he got paid $2 million for doing I'm a celebrity and he was allowed smoke breaks outside camp cameras and he was even allowed to have advanced hair treatments while there

who the **** cares? Dire state of Australian people (and people of the world in general) these days caring about reality tv programs.

I'd be more disappointed with Warne if he want along with that kind of asinine bull**** and "played within the rules" of an idiotic reality show

 

[marc71178]

Excluding India / England

Botham 88 tests
3999 runs at 28.97
324 wickets at 28.76

Kapil 103 tests
3862 runs at 28.73
349 wickets at 27.77

Look, we get that you have a massive hard on for Kapil but no amount of stats manipulation or bollocks will change the fact that there was a gulf between him and Botham.

 

[marc71178]

My thoughts on this have been mentioned before, but anyone who wants to denigrate Warne as a cricketer needs to get a hold of the 2005 Ashes series on video and watch just how great he was. The guy was a force, almost supernatural in his will to win games for Australia (with the ball and bat). And I'm not even being hyperbolic there. He was really THAT good.

Remind us how that series ended? In spite of his will to win and the hyperbole you include, he wasn’t even the best all rounder in the series.

 

[Red Hill]

Possibly, but if Kallis' bowling is overrated, then so is Sobers' - even more so.

Seeing as Sobers bowled a phenomenal amount of overs, and how much bowling impacts batting in other cases, Sobers might have averaged 80 with the bat if he didn't bowl.

 

[Red Hill]

Remind us how that series ended? In spite of his will to win and the hyperbole you include, he wasn’t even the best all rounder in the series.

What's your point? Just to prove what an argumentative pedant flog you are?

Where did I even say he was the best all rounder in the series? But he took 40 wickets in the series (16 more than Flintoff) and averaged 27 with the bat coming in at #8.

And why do I need to remind you how the series ended? You know, I know, we all know. England won by winning two tests (surprisingly, the 2nd and 4th tests: which McGrath missed)

Warne took 40 wickets that series. Only 3 other bowlers have done that in a 5 test series, ever.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Remind us how that series ended? In spite of his will to win and the hyperbole you include, he wasn’t even the best all rounder in the series.

Yeah we all know the English team and their exceptionally fresh breath won the series, doesn't change how immense Warne was though

 

[stephen]

Yeah in raw stats, Warne had a buffer series than Flintoff. He was let down mostly by the batsmen. Flintoff was 400 runs/24 wickets. Warne was 249 runs/40 wickets. In ordinary circumstances Warne was MotS by a mile.

 

[mr_mister]

Marc youve been posting here since 2001. You must be over 35 surely. It's unbecoming to be this snide and standoffish at your age

 

[Test_Fan_Only]

Speaking of Botham's peak, in his first 25 tests he had 1336 runs @ 40.48 and 139 wkts @ 18.52.

Has anyone else even come close to having a batting average more than double his bowling average?

Bradman was close to 3 times higher. Okay that is a bit silly because he only took 2 wickets at test level.
Those I have found at 1.5 or better. Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Pollock, Steve Waugh, Armstrong and others I checked did not reach that mark over their whole careers.

Sobers 1.69
Kallis 1.69
Procter 1.67 - obviously from a very small sample
Billy Bates 1.66
Imran Khan 1.65
Miller 1.61
Hammond 1.54
Billy Barnes 1.50

And another bit of silliness Darren Lehmann 1.64. He only took 15 test wickets but at the amazingly low average of 27.46 for the crap he bowled. Extremely flattering.

 

[smalishah84]

Bradman was close to 3 times higher. Okay that is a bit silly because he only took 2 wickets at test level.
Those I have found at 1.5 or better. Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Pollock, Steve Waugh, Armstrong and others I checked did not reach that mark over their whole careers.

Sobers 1.69
Kallis 1.69
Procter 1.67 - obviously from a very small sample
Billy Bates 1.66
Imran Khan 1.65
Miller 1.61
Hammond 1.54
Billy Barnes 1.50

And another bit of silliness Darren Lehmann 1.64. He only took 15 test wickets but at the amazingly low average of 27.46 for the crap he bowled. Extremely flattering.

Is this ratio at peak or overall career ratio?

 

[mr_mister]

In the last 30 years only Lara and Sachin were better batsman than Kallis.. I can think of at least 2 bowlers better than Pollock from SA alone. Pollock is generally underrated but to say he was equal to Kallis is wrong.
Pollock wasn’t no 7 batsman. The usefulness of 5th bowler and no 8 batsman aren’t the same. 5th bowler is more valuable to a team than no 8 batsman because of the injuries and workloads of main bowlers. Also in the beginning of career, Kallis used to bowl tons of overs per innings and had shown more ability with it than Pollock ever did with the bat. In the second half, he was mostly used when the opposition already settled down against Steyn/Philander/Morkel and had to compete for wickets with them.

Also, Kallis is highly rated by players. Just go through the Lord’s YouTube account players pick their XI and you’d see how many times he was picked in it by current and former players and how highly they rate him.
Mike Hussey said in an interview that Australian team often had an argument about Kallis if he was the greatest all rounder ever and more than half of his team mates agreed he was.

Your first point is highly debatable. I did a ranking exercise which a good chunk of CWers participated in on the best batsmen, quicks and spinners ever. Kallis ranked the 19th best bat of all time, Shaun Pollock the 18th best quick. I could only see 4, maybe 5 spin bowlers outranking him if it was a combined quicks/spinners ranking. So they're essentially even with their primary skill according to this site

I think lower order runs and a 5th bowling option could vary on their importance depending on the situation. You don't need your 7/8 to make runs if your top order fires just like you don't need your 5th bowler if your frontliner bowlers run through the batting line up

 

[Bolo]

Peak any elite player was "something else"

Bradman was close to 3 times higher. Okay that is a bit silly because he only took 2 wickets at test level.
Those I have found at 1.5 or better. Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Pollock, Steve Waugh, Armstrong and others I checked did not reach that mark over their whole careers.

Sobers 1.69
Kallis 1.69
Procter 1.67 - obviously from a very small sample
Billy Bates 1.66
Imran Khan 1.65
Miller 1.61
Hammond 1.54
Billy Barnes 1.50

And another bit of silliness Darren Lehmann 1.64. He only took 15 test wickets but at the amazingly low average of 27.46 for the crap he bowled. Extremely flattering.

You are listing the ratios they ended their careers on, not where they peaked.

This method is very generous to botham on the one hand. Almost nobody peaks at the start of their careers. Botham gets assessed purely on peak while everyone else gets assessed on peak plus everything before.

On the other hand, it is not bothams ratio so much as his phenomenal output that is impressive- runs and wpm. We will see many looking comparable when in reality they are nowhere near.

 

[Gowza]

Tbh the best thing to take botham on is his career centuries and career 5fers. If you ignore his peak period and his horrible period the 2 things he had at the end of his career which can’t be argued are his 14 tons and 27 5fers.

Any specialist bowler would be happy ending their career with that many 5fers and although the 14 test tons aren’t as impressive how many specialist bats would be unhappy scoring 14 tons even if it is across the course of their entire career?

The amount of 5fers botham got is all time great territory.

Career 5fers
McGrath: 29
Wasim akram: 25
Marshall: 22

It doesn’t make him a bowler of their quality but even if you cut out a good chunk of bothams career he still got plenty of 5fers. What he did is compact a career amount of 5fers and tons into a shorter period than just about anyone else has ever done.

Obviously longevity is a negative for botham, but his overall output despite such a poor 2nd half of his career is something special.

 

[Bolo]

Only few selects him in an AT 11

Seeing as Sobers bowled a phenomenal amount of overs, and how much bowling impacts batting in other cases, Sobers might have averaged 80 with the bat if he didn't bowl.

I never really got the impression that kallis saw his batting get affected by his bowling, so I'm not sure if this happened with sobers.

And you can point to the fact that sobers sent down nearly twice as many overs on a match, but i dont think this tells the full story.

Kallis had a reasonable workload for a decade in the middle of his career. Still less per match than sobers, but more per year. Kallis was operating as a fast bowler while sobers was bowling various degrees of not fast. And kallis was often called on when the rest of the attack were getting nothing from the pitch to bend his back- really high intensity stuff. Even though he was only pushing the ball through at the same pace as someone with rythm like rabada, he was working much harder while bowling. Plus he was spending a ridiculous amount of time at the crease due to his slow batting and fielding slips. I doubt sobers workload was generally higher.

Kallis did want to make sure his bowling didn't affect his batting to prolong his career. So he let his batting affect his bowling and started sending down slow junk in his last few years. But he put in the work for as many matches as sobers career before this.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah the method of batting average minus bowling average is a useful metric for ranking bowling all rounders but it's too generous to batting all rounders