Crimea

[Uppercut]

If Dublin sent troops into Derry and found that a majority wished to join the Republic it wouldn't make their actions legitimate. You could isolate a suburb of Crimea where the majority wish to be a part of the Ukraine. Why doesn't the Ukraine occupy it with troops and hold a snap referendum, then absorb it?

Self-determination doesn't imply that an undemocratic foreign power can gerrymander a corner of another country and subject it to majority rule. If you think Putin has any legitimacy here you're a gullible fool.

 

[Spark]

Didn't they more or less do that with Bangladesh when it was first created, and the result is that its border with India looks ludicrously complicated when you really zoom in?

 

[Cruxdude]

Didn't they more or less do that with Bangladesh when it was first created, and the result is that its border with India looks ludicrously complicated when you really zoom in?

Nope Bangladesh was pretty different. An alleged genocide was on going in Bangladesh that triggered the war.

The start of this crisis reminds me of the start of the Srilankan civil war. There too the first salvo was removing a language as the official language. Putin is probably not doing it solely for the good of the people of Crimea but the hypocrisy from the west is sickening.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Read around, been reported plenty of times by people who have actually gone up and asked them.

For example - not quite what I was looking for, but I didn't look very hard and it's close enough

So 1 person assuming that they were paid. hmmmmmm

 

[Uppercut]

the hypocrisy from the west is sickening.

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure a compass direction can't be hypocritical.

 

[GIMH]

So 1 person assuming that they were paid. hmmmmmm

Do you actually sit and believe the things you claim to or do you just like playing the anti-western role?

Like, it's in every thread of this nature

 

[Spark]

Nope Bangladesh was pretty different. An alleged genocide was on going in Bangladesh that triggered the war.

The start of this crisis reminds me of the start of the Srilankan civil war. There too the first salvo was removing a language as the official language. Putin is probably not doing it solely for the good of the people of Crimea but the hypocrisy from the west is sickening.

Yeah I'm thinking of the partition of East Pakistan which then became Bangladesh.

So 1 person assuming that they were paid. hmmmmmm

Did you even read the article saying that a number of protestors were literally bussed in from Russia or just skim through? As I said, it's been reported so often anecdotally and otherwise that I doubt I'd have to try very hard.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Yeah I'm thinking of the partition of East Pakistan which then became Bangladesh.



Did you even read the article saying that a number of protestors were literally bussed in from Russia or just skim through? As I said, it's been reported so often anecdotally and otherwise that I doubt I'd have to try very hard.

Ferried in from Russia and paying locals are different things. And if locals are so easily manipulated by Russians then there is something in that.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

Do you actually sit and believe the things you claim to or do you just like playing the anti-western role?

Like, it's in every thread of this nature

When did supporting Russia automatically became anti-western.

 

[Agent Nationaux]

And apart from criticising US foreign policy, I haven't really said anything else that's anti-western.

 

[fredfertang]

I wish now that I'd taken more notice of what was going on when the USSR broke up, but presumably had Crimea of been of any great strategic, military or economic importance then Russia would have hung onto it then.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, but if not then why, given that no one seems to dispute that a majority of would like to be part of Russia, has Putin gone about things in the way that he has rather than do so lawfully

Is he just a homophobic ****?

 

[sledger]

And apart from criticising US foreign policy, I haven't really said anything else that's anti-western.

Yeah, ok champ.

 

[uvelocity]

so whats the lawful, eu/us approved way of bringing about this change. seems to me, it would require the whole of ukraine to vote on it, which seems a lot less likely to get up for one thing.

 

[sledger]

Would require the Ukrainian parliament to vote on it and pass a bill ceding the territory.

 

[Spark]

Ferried in from Russia and paying locals are different things. And if locals are so easily manipulated by Russians then there is something in that.

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or not but the point is that these protests are not purely spontaneous uprisings of local support, but PR exercises to a large degree. Astroturfed.

 

[Uppercut]

Would require the Ukrainian parliament to vote on it and pass a bill ceding the territory.

Which isn't remotely ethically sound either. Binding a new state to the constitution of the country it's trying to secede from, it makes no sense.

Leaders condemning the referendum as "illegal" is just pathetic.

 

[Pothas]

I wish now that I'd taken more notice of what was going on when the USSR broke up, but presumably had Crimea of been of any great strategic, military or economic importance then Russia would have hung onto it then.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, but if not then why, given that no one seems to dispute that a majority of would like to be part of Russia, has Putin gone about things in the way that he has rather than do so lawfully

Is he just a homophobic ****?

Kruschev gave it away, allegedly when he was drunk. Of course at that time it did not matter as it was all part of the Soviet Union anyway, a lot of stuff kind of happened by accident when it all collapsed, Belarus becoming independent for example.

 

[uvelocity]

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or not but the point is that these protests are not purely spontaneous uprisings of local support, but PR exercises to a large degree. Astroturfed.

Which isn't remotely ethically sound either. Binding a new state to the constitution of the country it's trying to secede from, it makes no sense.

Leaders condemning the referendum as "illegal" is just pathetic.

kind of what i was aiming for. again, i'm an amateur on crimea, but from a long way away it seems like a substantial or perhaps even a vast majority want this to happen. the rhetoric from most western leaders has been plain against, i don't really understand why. rather than this being the right thing done in the wrong way, there seems to be a view from world leaders on this side that this is a wrong thing and lets find reasons why.

 

[social]

kind of what i was aiming for. again, i'm an amateur on crimea, but from a long way away it seems like a substantial or perhaps even a vast majority want this to happen. the rhetoric from most western leaders has been plain against, i don't really understand why. rather than this being the right thing done in the wrong way, there seems to be a view from world leaders on this side that this is a wrong thing and lets find reasons why.

Crimea is part of Ukraine and that should be the end of the story

The majority of the Crimean population is of Russian origin due to genocide/forcible deportation of the rest (where more than 80% died on the trip "home")/restrictions on migration in the times when it was under Russian rule

Despite what Hollywood and Fortune magazine says, Putin is the richest and most powerful man in the world and Crimea is the latest thing in his sights

IMO, that is wrong

 

[Spark]

Which isn't remotely ethically sound either. Binding a new state to the constitution of the country it's trying to secede from, it makes no sense.

Leaders condemning the referendum as "illegal" is just pathetic.

Yeah the "illegal" tag is amusingly inane