The Paedophile Hunter

[cpr]

As Fred states, the help is there for those who come forward to ask for it - The Samaritans have publicly stated they have received a huge increase in calls from people worried and scared about their sexual desires, and want to know where to turn to for help.

Lets take Zorax's opening argument
'Assuming you are not a part of producing or consuming child pornography, that you have never laid hands of a child, and the only images/videos you get yourself off on are those available in the public domain...who are you hurting?'

Well, one could pass forward an argument that if a person is using an image not produced for sexual gratification, and no-one finds out, then technically no, no one is getting hurt. But then couldn't you say that about other voyeuristic activity where the perpetrator does not get caught in the act - taking photo's of women's rear's whilst they are out shopping, peering though bedroom windows....You are going into a rather nasty grey area - who knows the reason for the picture being taken. A child might be fully clothed and think its innocent, but if the photographer knows they/others will 'enjoy' the picture, the child is still being exploited. These public domain pictures could be 30 years old, and the photographed child may have their own grown up children, however if it was taken for an exploitive reason then its still hurting someone to this day. If these pictures are still being viewed, then someone will decide there is a market for new, unseen pictures to be made, and children still get exploited.

I suppose the great sin of the internet is more people can get caught up in this - I presume its far easier to search for images by yourself from a PC than it would've been 20 years ago. Then to be a paedophile meant knowing others, or making your own. Now I suppose any curious person can spend a few hours and probably find something akin to child porn if they want to. Maybe these people will never go beyond looking at pictures, but those pictures are being made by someone for their gratification, and as such are fuelling the issue.

There's been a case in the news recently over here, of a school teacher caught with pictures. A happily married man with children, a wife who loved him so, and no complaint he's ever done anything with his children, or laid a hand on others. But he probably started with pictures he saw online, and by the time he came to the police attention he'd taken voyeuristic pictures of children at his school, and had tried to buy some pictures online. A few days after being released on bail he committed suicide.

Now this case says two things to me
1) Because of the internet increasing the ease and access to this stuff, and because its so hard to police, what starts as a curiosity that probably would never have taken off pre-internet becomes an unchecked interest that grows and expands. Whilst not every person who downloads a child picture will go down this route, its possible in many cases it may, and thus Zorax's original question starts to be answered - You are only hurting yourself at first, but unchecked you may well go on to hurt others.
2) He's not the first, nor the last, to commit suicide when it all comes to light, which to me does back up one of Zorax's later points - where is the help for those who find themselves on this path? As Fred said the help is there, but how easy is it to get? Anyone can find themselves in a Alcohol/Drug rehab place, and most will know they were on this path anyway, and feel sympathy/pity/disdain. But to check yourself in for paedophilia treatment? Well no-one saw that coming, disdain is the best reaction you can hope for. Hell celebrities love checking in for 'sex-addiction' rehab, imagine going to that place and asking for treatment for an addiction to children......



As ever, its not a black and white issue, and whilst Zorax's original statement made me shudder, there is a little to be taken from that point of view in regards to preventing paedophilia rather than catching it.

 

[Burgey]

I thought this bloke died when a stingray tail stabbed him in the heart.

 

[the big bambino]

I've had this debate before, and would love to here CW's view on this.

What's wrong with being a Pedophile?

Assuming you are not a part of producing or consuming child pornography, that you have never laid hands of a child, and the only images/videos you get yourself off on are those available in the public domain...who are you hurting?

How is being born with some wiring messed up in your brain that makes you find children sexually attractive different to being born gay? Or rather, how does that make you worse?

Dear God... If you haven't done any of those things you probably aren't a pedo in the first place. Miraculously if you are a sicko and haven't done those things then you haven't broken any laws have you. Being attracted to children is a dirty perversion and I wish people would stop likening criminal and immoral behaviour to homosexuality - one of the faux arguments used to keep that group suppressed for so long.

There are moral standards of behaviour and practices like paedophilia are sickening as bestiality and necrophilia - which is the better analogy if we were to liken attraction to children with other morally repugnant and illegal practices.

 

[fredfertang]

I thought this bloke died when a stingray tail stabbed him in the heart.

No - that was Captain Nemo - you really shouldn't watch so much kiddies' TV

 

[social]

Having woken up in some bizarre universe where paedophilia = dementia, back to sleep I go

 

[vic_orthdox]

There was an article with a similar theme in the Saturday Paper.

Inside the mind of a paedophile | The Saturday Paper

 

[Ikki]

I watched the episode interested in the discussion at hand. To be honest, even though I felt something was a bit off with Stintson, his methods seemed fine. In a way, I have to agree with him: the people have only themselves to blame. Although it's unfortunate that some of the men through shame may kill themselves by being exposed; I'd feel worse if they actually got to complete their acts or if they committed them on their own family members. This isn't some weird sexual preference; it's a life destroying act committed against the defenceless.

 

[Goughy]

I watched the episode interested in the discussion at hand. To be honest, even though I felt something was a bit off with Stintson, his methods seemed fine. In a way, I have to agree with him: the people have only themselves to blame. Although it's unfortunate that some of the men through shame may kill themselves by being exposed; I'd feel worse if they actually got to complete their acts or if they committed them on their own family members. This isn't some weird sexual preference; it's a life destroying act committed against the defenceless.

I get what you mean about Stinson. There isnt something quite right and that is possibly what I like though. However, it wouldnt be a surprise to me if this all turned out to be one great big performance art project.

 

[the big bambino]

I watched the episode interested in the discussion at hand. To be honest, even though I felt something was a bit off with Stintson, his methods seemed fine. In a way, I have to agree with him: the people have only themselves to blame. Although it's unfortunate that some of the men through shame may kill themselves by being exposed; I'd feel worse if they actually got to complete their acts or if they committed them on their own family members. This isn't some weird sexual preference; it's a life destroying act committed against the defenceless.

Frankly good on him. I don't care if a paedo is so ashamed at being caught he tops himself. Its just a consequence of his selfishness. How about having enough shame to admit you're a pervert for sexualising children and actively seeking help. The fact they go to such lengths to avoid detection and practice their destruction of innocent lives shows an understanding of their depravity and an unwillingness to confront it.

 

[cpr]

Devils advocate here, would you care as little if someone with other non-sociable mental tendencies committed suicide? The schizophrenic? The person with a weakness for booze/drugs, maybe prone to violence when under influences? Society applauds these people for standing up and saying 'I am that person, but I don't want to be anymore' and helps them, Do paedophiles not deserve to get the same support, given the difference between them and the others is their unsociable mental tendancies take a different form? For those who did stand up and admit their illnesses and seek help, would you welcome them back into society the same way as you would the person who goes to AA meetings each week, or remembers to pop the correct pills every morning?

Its a nigh on impossible subject to approach in a non-emotive mannor, but if all society instantly shouts 'Ugh, paedophiles, I hope they all burn', then all it does is push the issue to the back of societies conscience, where it sits out of sight until a horrid case brings it back into mind. In doing that those who may seek help and try and prevent themselves slipping further down into depravity find themselves pushed to the fringes to, where help does not come calling.

 

[the big bambino]

It is a tragedy when a person with mental illness commits suicide. I do applaud them for seeking help.

A paedophile is a criminal. The least he can do is seek help. Many don't and justify their criminality as normal. Even love. So in the context of that arrogance to do harm, if a paedophile was caught out in a sting and shamed publicly, then his reaction is a consequence of his behaviour.

 

[the big bambino]

Also I think its natural for society to view paedophiles with loathing. A disgusting act will cause disgust. People shouldn't be obliged to temper that disgust for some imagined benefit that it will encourage paedophiles to get help. The help is available. The only reason a paedophile wont access it is that they don't share the natural disgust for their behaviour a normal person would.

 

[Ikki]

Devils advocate here, would you care as little if someone with other non-sociable mental tendencies committed suicide? The schizophrenic? The person with a weakness for booze/drugs, maybe prone to violence when under influences? Society applauds these people for standing up and saying 'I am that person, but I don't want to be anymore' and helps them, Do paedophiles not deserve to get the same support, given the difference between them and the others is their unsociable mental tendancies take a different form? For those who did stand up and admit their illnesses and seek help, would you welcome them back into society the same way as you would the person who goes to AA meetings each week, or remembers to pop the correct pills every morning?

Its a nigh on impossible subject to approach in a non-emotive mannor, but if all society instantly shouts 'Ugh, paedophiles, I hope they all burn', then all it does is push the issue to the back of societies conscience, where it sits out of sight until a horrid case brings it back into mind. In doing that those who may seek help and try and prevent themselves slipping further down into depravity find themselves pushed to the fringes to, where help does not come calling.

I think the other non-sociable mental tendencies are different in that those persons generally harms themselves instead of other people because of it. Basically, think of it as you would any other rapist. Your tendency is to hurt people - in maybe the worst way possible bar killing them - and the fact that you have basically gone 9/10ths of the way to act out your tendency isn't going to get any sympathy from me as it shows that if it wasn't fake you were intending to go through with it. If they were to enter some program before ever committing such an act then I would applaud them. I somewhat agree that the stigma of admitting you're a paedophile can destroy your social standing even if you never actually do anything and maybe as a society we need to be more tolerant. But the people on this show don't fall into that category IMO. The people in all this I really feel for are the family members, both of the victims and the perpetrator.

 

[zorax]

Yea look, I think we can all agree that someone raping a child or tricking them into having sex deserves to be treated like a criminal. No arguments on that.

But my point, and the point of a few others here, is that this is a mental illness. It takes on various forms and can have various causes, and some are more curable than others, but it is an illness. And we need to get society to a stage where we can have people who feel these urges and desires feel comfortable to raise their hand and say 'I need help'.

The way we have it now is that simply admitting to such desires gets to you labelled as a 'sicko', 'disgusting' and a stain on the human race. No one wants to come out because of it. Society has those with pedophillic desires feeling like they are monsters and a sin to nature, when really all they have is often a mental disease.**

Not seeking help for it can lead to people on a downward spiral to depravity, as mentioned earlier. You could possibly lead your whole life as a pedophile without harming any children, directly or indirectly, but thats unlikely.

What we need is a change of mentality in this society. We need to be more tolerant and more understanding, and focus more on applauding those who admit they have a problem before committing a crime than we do on shaming those who have already committed one.

Ikki has a point in that other non-sociable problems usually harm only the sufferer. I would say that this is even stronger grounds for us to encourage pedophiles to speak up and seek help quickly. A person silently suffering with depression or schizophrenia only harms themselves and ruins their own life - a pedophile could ruin several more. Even if they've gotten all the way to luring a child out to meet them, gotten 9/10ths of the way of fulfilling their tendency...wouldn't you prefer they, at that stage, seek help? Better late than never.

Changing societies views won't suddenly stop pedophiles from ****ing children, but it will help. A soft handed, more understanding and tolerant approach, combined with existing legislation, will be more effective IMO. Instead of making it a choice between being stigmatised for coming out vs ending up a child molester, make it a choice between coming out and being applauded for seeking help vs. ending up a child molester. You will get more pedophiles turning themselves in that way, and hopefully less children being abused and exploited.


**This in itself is debatable too.

 

[zorax]

Another good article, pretty much echoing the one Vic posted (right down to the reference to Virtuous Pedophiles)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/06/opinion/pedophilia-a-disorder-not-a-crime.html?_r=0

 

[the big bambino]

Yeah I get it. They need help. Its available. No, society isn't to blame for their disgust. It sends the right message to paedos to seek help. If there's no opprobrium attached the practice where's the motivation to change? I'm wary of classifying it as a mental illness or at least having that become the prominent aspect of concern. Has the effect of creating sympathy for perpetrators of the most loathsome type. More truthful to have their behaviour treated as criminal.

I remember walking thru the grounds of UWA in Perth with my partner in the mid 80s. It was on a weekend. We walked past a loitering, skinny sleazebag and stopped at his beckon. Quickly turned out he was a proselytising paedo. Once that was established we gave him the flick and moved on. Always regret I didn't drop the bag of **** then and there. But you know - witnesses.

 

[zorax]

Help's available? Yes. Easily accessible? No.

Think about it, how would you react if your child confided to you that he was a pedophile? How about the your best friend, the guy you grew up with? What if they told you they had these desires, but they have never laid hands on a child or indulged in kiddy porn, and the stress and fear was killing them.

Would you be sympathetic? Would you offer to help him find a therapist? Would you think of him in the same way you used to?

Seriously, think about it.

Now, if a person feels that they can't confide in his family or his friends about their problem...how do you expect them to seek help from a therapist? What if the therapist thinks he's a disgusting monster for having these feelings too? Then where does he go?

Sadly many therapists think the way you do, and are wary of classifying pedophilia a mental illness. But that needs to change. And it is changing.

And I agree with you, society is not to be blamed for their desires. However, as described in the articles, many pedophiles have been abused in their youth as well. You may not want to blame all of society for that, but you can't punish a person for having desires and feelings that stem from being the victim of a traumatic event, now can you?

And again, while you don't blame society for making them a pedophile, you can and should blame society for vilifying it to the point that they are afraid to come out and seek help. Heck, that is literally what society was doing to Gay people not that long ago.

And pedophiles do have motive to change - the motive being that having sex with a child is illegal, not matter if they coerce them or force them. And most* pedophiles are logical, rational people who understand why having sex with a child is bad. As such, they feel the urge to change.
Think of it as drug abuse - by shifting from an attitude where we stigamtise and belittle addicts, we have become one where we encourage them to seek help instead. That has proven to be far more beneficial. After all, the first step to fixing a problem is identifying you have one.

On the last point...not wanting to feel sympathy for a perpetrator. Well that's subjective. Do you sympathise with any perpetrator of any crime? Is the poor man in jail for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his children equivalent to the cold blooded serial killer who feels no remorse? What about the man who killed his wife and her secret lover in a fit of rage when finding them in bed together? What about the single mom who ran over a child cause she fell asleep at the wheel as a result of working 24 hours straight to provide for her kids? What about the drug addict who was caught for possession? Are all crimes equal to you?

No one man is an island. We are all a mixture of nature, nurture, and our own decisions. But which factor is more prominent? Does it vary with situation? Heck, there are theories out there based on chemistry and physics which say that there may be no such thing as free will to begin with. This topic is too deep to get into, assigning blame on whether the situations we find ourselves in or the way we behave is entirely up to us or not...it's not black and white. It's many, many shades of grey.

Finally, talking about a pedophiles desires...it's not something these people have complete control over. I mean, do you think you can control who you are sexually attracted to? Can you flick a switch in your brain and decide one morning to be aroused by buff 6 foot men for that day, but curvy short women the next? Sexuality doesn't work like that.

*just basing this of these articles and some stuff on the internet really. Haven't met/talked to any pedos IRL.

 

[the big bambino]

And again, while you don't blame society for making them a pedophile, you can and should blame society for vilifying it to the point that they are afraid to come out and seek help. Heck, that is literally what society was doing to Gay people not that long ago.

Why do you think (some) societies have changed attitudes towards homosexuality but still revile paedophilia? The attitude towards gays was criminal but correct towards paedophiles. Why aren't you capable of making the same distinction? I don't know if paedophiles find it difficult accessing help. I suspect they can but the real impediment is their arrogant belief they are within their rights to abuse children. I suspect they would be referred instead of spurned by a therapist uneasy at treating them. Even if they are spurned that is a consequence of their activity. Even if help is hard to find they are still obliged to seek find it.

Not that am overly assured by therapy for pedos. I've heard they are most intransigent to treatment. Which leads me to speculate that if they have a mental problem its one of narcissism and delusion. Supposing their intransigence to treatment is factual I wouldn't trust anyone of them whether they have been treated or not. Extremely long incarceration and constant surveillance on release is the only method of managing them.

 

[Dan]

tbb, I think you're talking past zorax somewhat -- he's (rather clumsily, imo) trying to draw a distinction between individuals who are attracted to children who never act upon that attraction because they know it's self-evidently wrong/disgusting/utterly ****ed-up, and those who are deluded narcissists who feel they have the right to act on those desires and destroy lives in a cavalcade of ****ed-up molestation and abuse.

In the case of the latter, nobody's disagreeing that the person needs to be locked up (preferably for life without parole).

It's in the case of the former -- the paedophile who never acts upon his desire and knows it is wrong -- that zorax is talking about. Basically a case of how society can prevent a person in that category from becoming the latter; how to treat them in such a way to minimise the chances of kids being abused in the future.

Basically if we try to reduce the stigma over holding the thoughts, it arguably risks legitimising the actions in the minds of a small few, resulting in worse outcomes. However, by reducing said stigma, it arguably would allow those non-offenders to more easily seek treatment and learn how to manage their desires without acting upon them, ideally reducing the number of kids abused.

I'd argue it comes down to utilitarianism -- whatever results in the least number of kids being scarred for life by such violent, disgusting, ****ed-up actions is the way to go (I'm making the assumption that all of humanity are bastards and we can never eradicate it entirely, which is ****ing depressing).

As philosophically-consistent and liberal as zorax's argument might be, and in complete ignorance of how many paedophiles don't act on those desires (and let's face it, how would we know), I think we'd see far worse outcomes, especially with the precedent it could potentially set. Idealistically, your model would be great if it could eradicate paedophilia entirely. Pragmatically, however, I can't see how it would actually deliver that end-state.

 

[sledger]

Comparing paedophilia to homosexuality is just dire.