Totalitarianism gone mad AKA the China thread

[sledger]

Nothing is wrong with me. I still think everyone should have the full spectrum of individual rights (FSIR).

I just prefer prosperity without FSIR to being poor. The world is complex, and not everyone is already in a rich country. There are thousands of people in India who die every day simply because they are poor. UAE built their country up abusing the rights of migrant workers. China doesn't provide FSIR to its people but their people don't die due to poverty and have money to lead decent lives, compared to many other countries.

When you are desperately poor, FSIR don't make you feel better by themselves.

Haha, except when they shouldn't, apparently.

 

[harsh.ag]

Haha, except when they shouldn't, apparently.

Not "shouldn't". Prosperity with FSIR > Prosperity without FSIR > Poverty with FSIR > Poverty without FSIR.

If behind a veil of ignorance, I would rather be born in China today than India. That's skin in the game preference revelation. Should I lie about it to be absolutist and consistent?

 

[sledger]

I don't think anyone is saying you should lie about anything tbh.

 

[harsh.ag]

I don't think anyone is saying you should lie about anything tbh.

But you're putting words into my mouth. Apparently, I think people shouldn't have all the individual rights.

 

[sledger]

Well, it's difficult to infer a lot else from what you have said tbh. Saying people "should" have them is an empty statement if they must automatically cede to some other competing interest/when it is convenient for the achievement of someone else's objective.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "all the individual rights" anyway.

 

[Spark]

It's not even "the ends justify the means". It's more "the ends justify a completely different set of ends too"

 

[Uppercut]

I think I understand the point harsh is making but the argument isn't really working in the Chinese context, where prosperity was associated with a move towards greater individual freedom. And the India comparison isn't great, China had such institutional advantages post-WW2 that it should never have spent so long at a similar/lower level of development to India.

A comparison with Russia might serve the argument better, since Russia moved to individual freedom much more recklessly and tanked its economy in the process. But that only gets you to "individual freedoms should be introduced carefully". They should still be introduced.

 

[harsh.ag]

Well, it's difficult to infer a lot else from what you have said tbh. Saying people "should" have them is an empty statement if they must automatically cede to some other competing interest/when it is convenient for the achievement of someone else's objective.

I'm not even sure what you mean by "all the individual rights" anyway.

It's not an empty statement. FSIR aren't the reason we live. They aren't #1 priority to the detriment of all other priorities. They don't have a higher weightage than not having to live a poor crushing existence, esp when it comes to millions of people.

By FSIR, I mean, the whole gamut of individual rights available to, say, the best countries in the world. China still does have some individual rights (I assume).

 

[harsh.ag]

I think I understand the point harsh is making but the argument isn't really working in the Chinese context, where prosperity was associated with a move towards greater individual freedom. And the India comparison isn't great, China had such institutional advantages post-WW2 that it should never have spent so long at a similar/lower level of development to India.

A comparison with Russia might serve the argument better, since Russia moved to individual freedom much more recklessly and tanked its economy in the process. But that only gets you to "individual freedoms should be introduced carefully". They should still be introduced.

Agreed.

 

[sledger]

It's not an empty statement. FSIR aren't the reason we live. They aren't #1 priority to the detriment of all other priorities. They don't have a higher weightage than not having to live a poor crushing existence, esp when it comes to millions of people.

Not to you perhaps.

By FSIR, I mean, the whole gamut of individual rights available to, say, the best countries in the world. China still does have some individual rights (I assume).

Yeah I gathered, but this is still somewhat vague.

 

[harsh.ag]

Not to you perhaps.

Yeah, obviously. If you had to put money on it, would you bet that poor people in poor countries would say any different?

 

[harsh.ag]

FTR, I am not saying that there are trade-offs between prosperity and FSIR. All I am saying is if System 1 manages to produce prosperity without FSIR in the long run, and System 2 manages to produce poverty with FSIR in the long run, I prefer to be born in System 1 (in a behind a veil of ignorance median/poor citizen sense).

 

[sledger]

FTR, I am not saying that there are trade-offs between prosperity and FSIR. All I am saying is if System 1 manages to produce prosperity without FSIR in the long run, and System 2 manages to produce poverty with FSIR in the long run, I prefer to be born in System 1 (in a behind a veil of ignorance median/poor citizen sense).

Ok fair dos. But your previous posts do very much read like this is what you are trying to argue imo.

 

[sledger]

Yeah, obviously. If you had to put money on it, would you bet that poor people in poor countries would say any different?

Depends who you asked, but I'm not sure this really makes a huge difference either way.

 

[NZTailender]

Probably not really the thread for it but for some reason it's reminded me that a few weeks ago we had some Korean students (of the Southern variety) come over and do a summer exchange short course in 3D Printing technologies. It was an all woman group and one of them asked to learn welding, even though it wasn't part of what they were doing, because they weren't allowed to in Korea.

metal work techs got her in, trained her up and she had a go. Smile on her face after told the whole story.

 

[Maximas]

I think harsh makes a fair point in some respect, what makes for better quality of life - access to vital resources needed to survive or access to personal freedoms?

They aren't mutually exclusive though, nor does the correlation in the China/India example necessarily equal causation

 

[Burgey]

I think context is almost everything here. If you're starving, then I don't think you'll take much comfort in the fact that at least you're starving while enjoying your #freedom.

Likewise, if you're well fed, that won't be of much comfort if you're rounded up and thrown in a gulag.

Either of those scenarios make concerns over things like whether a university banned a nutter of any persuasion from a speaking tour seem pretty unimportant.

Which, tbf, in the scheme of things they are.

 

[harsh.ag]

 

[Ausage]

Nothing wrong with government arms communicating with each other through official channels.

 

[Burgey]

Hows that any different to the Australian embassy promoting Monaros at G’Day USA in Los Angeles?