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News related stuff that doesn't really deserve it's own thread

Uppercut

Well-known member
Wait for it to be legitimately abandoned and then go take it, I suppose. I see no reason to assume the Egyptian government is a legitimate owner of it more than anyone else.
Pre-colonialism it would, like many places of burial or other sites considered sacred, have been understood to be the property of no one in particular. Like the Amazon Rainforest or the Great Plains. That doesn't make it OK to just call dibs and start stripping it.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Pre-colonialism it would, like many places of burial or other sites considered sacred, have been understood to be the property of no one in particular. Like the Amazon Rainforest or the Great Plains. That doesn't make it OK to just call dibs and start stripping it.
Yeah I mean I just strongly disagree. If it's the property of no-one in particular then it's for grabs. That doesn't mean easements don't exist but I also very strongly don't believe they are the property of "no-one in particular".
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
It feels weird to me that this is basically the same principle I'm using in the inheritance tax conversation where you strongly agree with me. If you die and leave no instructions for your property then you've abandoned it. Whether this was last week or 4000 years ago it's still true from my perspective.
 

Uppercut

Well-known member
It’s more the idea that it’s acceptable for outsiders to seize anything considered communal by a local community.

It’s like if an alien race was able to control access to air, and came in and declared ownership of all air on earth. Nobody owned the air before they did, but that doesn’t make it ok to just say it’s theirs.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
It’s more the idea that it’s acceptable for outsiders to seize anything considered communal by a local community.

It’s like if an alien race was able to control access to air, and came in and declared ownership of all air on earth. Nobody owned the air before they did, but that doesn’t make it ok to just say it’s theirs.
Hmm, I daresay the chance of perception being disconnected from reality in such situations is not entirely remote tbh.

I mean, if Person A names their dog "Dog that belongs to everybody" said dog may come to be considered communal. When it reality it is nothing of the sort. Or I could change the name of my house from "Rose Cottage" to "Community Cottage" for instance.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Yeah I mean I just strongly disagree. If it's the property of no-one in particular then it's for grabs. That doesn't mean easements don't exist but I also very strongly don't believe they are the property of "no-one in particular".
This is actually very close to the legal position in English law, funnily enough. Property (personal property at least) that is "abandoned" is deemed not to belong to anyone, and is fair game to be claimed by whoever wants it. I think the rules for real property are similar, though I cbf to look this up as I hate land law.
 

Uppercut

Well-known member
Hmm, I daresay the chance of perception being disconnected from reality in such situations is not entirely remote tbh.

I mean, if Person A names their dog "Dog that belongs to everybody" said dog may come to be considered communal. When it reality it is nothing of the sort. Or I could change the name of my house from "Rose Cottage" to "Community Cottage" for instance.
So this question of whether the dog is communal or the property of Person A. In the absence of a recognised legal authority, does it have an objective answer?
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
So this question of whether the dog is communal or the property of Person A. In the absence of a recognised legal authority, does it have an objective answer?
Haha, well, the strictly legal answer to situations where ownership cannot be evidenced by a deed or some other formal indicator is to look to see who has "possession or control" over it. But you are right to allude to the inherently problematic nature of such situations.

This wasn't the issue I was driving at though tbh. I was just opining generally that often perception =/= reality. Just because someone believes they have an entitlement to something does not make it so etc.
 

Spark

Global Moderator
It’s more the idea that it’s acceptable for outsiders to seize anything considered communal by a local community.

It’s like if an alien race was able to control access to air, and came in and declared ownership of all air on earth. Nobody owned the air before they did, but that doesn’t make it ok to just say it’s theirs.
Haha this is unwittingly one of the best summations of the socialist critique of liberal property rights that I've seen
 

Spark

Global Moderator
Hmm, I daresay the chance of perception being disconnected from reality in such situations is not entirely remote tbh.

I mean, if Person A names their dog "Dog that belongs to everybody" said dog may come to be considered communal. When it reality it is nothing of the sort. Or I could change the name of my house from "Rose Cottage" to "Community Cottage" for instance.
This hypothetical is pretty obviously situated in a framework where liberal proprety rights have been the established norm for centuries though. Not in a Native American village ca. 1800 where "communal property" has likewise been the established norm for centuries, and thus not everything just goes.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Yeah I mean I just strongly disagree. If it's the property of no-one in particular then it's for grabs. That doesn't mean easements don't exist but I also very strongly don't believe they are the property of "no-one in particular".
can i quote this when i go take a chunk out of uluru?
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
This hypothetical is pretty obviously situated in a framework where liberal proprety rights have been the established norm for centuries though. Not in a Native American village ca. 1800 where "communal property" has likewise been the established norm for centuries, and thus not everything just goes.
Also, to add to your point about collective ownership, this is especially true of cultures which not only had a communal sense of property but in addition considered non-human animals as ‘members’ of the community with their own subgroup property rights in contrast to either being communal property or individual property.

For instance, stretches of rain forests left alone for millennia for Bengal tigers. I don’t know if the current govt. protected and restricted borders for the rainforests is the most efficient idea but it seems quite harsh to merely say the land is just unclaimed and was free to be ****ed with as no other individual has a property deed over it.

On a broader level, animal rights are an issue I have never been able to reconcile with libertarianism and everything i’ve read on the topic seems to lean towards 1) Shapirosque divine exceptionality of human beings arguments or 2) cold blooded top of the food chain baby arguments, both of which are too conveniently human centric and neither of which seem especially convincing to me.

Genuinely interested on what Cribb’s thoughts are on it.

Tbf, Animal rights are an issue that I have always struggled to personally rationalise in a ‘fair’ way, consistent with my other beliefs, without drawing arbitrary lines. It’s an issue I want to read more on it outside of an either libertarian or anti-natalist/vegan perspective.
 

zorax

likes this
so a bunch of thugs attacked an MTR station to assault commuters last night

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...10-injured-baton-wielding-mob-suspected-triad

The police were called and chose not to respond. There is even video evidence of police walking away from the MTR

Lots of videos of the violence going around. These were just commuters. A lot of them had nothing to do with the protests, and even if they did, they were clearly on their way back home and not breaking any laws or causing any trouble. A pregnant woman got assaulted. Journalists got assaulted.

I'm going to have to carry a cricket bat with me everywhere I go now.
 

Burgey

Well-known member
If you want that sort of stuff sorted out, let the PLA in. They'll fix it in about seven minutes for you.
 

Daemon

Well-known member
so a bunch of thugs attacked an MTR station to assault commuters last night

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong...10-injured-baton-wielding-mob-suspected-triad

The police were called and chose not to respond. There is even video evidence of police walking away from the MTR

Lots of videos of the violence going around. These were just commuters. A lot of them had nothing to do with the protests, and even if they did, they were clearly on their way back home and not breaking any laws or causing any trouble. A pregnant woman got assaulted. Journalists got assaulted.

I'm going to have to carry a cricket bat with me everywhere I go now.
Yeah horrible stuff. Lots of evidence of police practically assisting the gangs.
 
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